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CONLANG  March 2011, Week 4

CONLANG March 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Naming Cases

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:57:51 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

>
> Not completely true: the way I learned Modern Standard Arabic, the genitive
> *does* mark possession
>

yes, that's true.  i suppose in (pre-)proto-semitic the "genitive construct"
had a sense that was more restricted to our concept of possession.  but of
course in MSA the case following prepositions like *li*-, *min*, *`and*,
etc. is also the genitive.  i like to hypothesize that these little
prepositions were once more concrete things that could actually be followed
by a genitive.  you see new ones forming like this even now:*
bi-jānib(in) al-mat`ami
*at-side-GEN the-restaurant-GEN
is "next to the restaurant," but in egyptian arabic the preposition is just
*gamb*, which i think < **ganb* < **gānb* < *gānib*.  so *gamb el-mat`am
*"next to the restaurant" basically = "side the restaurant."

something like this may have happened in persian too (if anyone can speak
more conclusively to the development of this): the word *dær *"door" is
identical to the preposition *dær *"in"; you can just say
*dær xāne-æm*
in house-am
for "i am in the house."  and i'm wondering whether - since *dær *and "door"
are presumably cognates - the "door" meaning may predate the "in" meaning,
and a sentence like "I'm door the house" became understood as having an
adverbial predicate; and voila, a preposition is born.

But cases in MSA are weird things. The subject of a clause introduced by
> 'inna and its sisters (a class of subordinating conjunctions) must be in
> the
> accusative, for instance. This inspired me so much I stole it when I
> created
> Reman. Reman is a Romance conlang that lost a lot of Romance features (no
> gender, an invariable definite article, no indefinite article, invariable
> adjectives, no copula). In particular, in Reman prepositions and
> conjunctions merged in one category, and subclauses must start with an
> overt
> subject that, if it's a pronoun, must be in its object form :)
>
yes!  i love this formulation.  i've never really looked into its historical
origins, but i suspect it would be fascinating as hell.  to me, it smells
slightly of the languages that will follow something like "behold!" with an
accusative, because historically you are literally being told to behold
something.  latin, for instance, occasionally follows *o*, *ecce*, *heu*,
and a couple others with the accusative.  maybe the *'inna*/*'an(na)* family
worked like this, or maybe they had the sense of "y'know" as in
y'know the camel, (he's) big!
y'know the-camel-ACC (he) big-NOM
*'inna al-jamala* *kabīrun!*
just a theory.  if i weren't super tired right now i would write more.  or
less.

i must see this Reman.  did you perchance work out a way for this to develop
historically?

matt



On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela.cg@
gmail.com> wrote:

> On 24 March 2011 11:40, Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > in semitic languages that inflect for case (modern standard arabic,
> > akkadian, etc.), there is always a nominative, accusative, and genitive.
> > the first two make perfect sense given how they function but the genitive
> > usually has nothing to do with possession; rather it's basically like the
> > OE
> > prepositional usage of the dative.  i've always found this pretty
> bizarre.
> > linguists could use a lesson or two from the more innovative conlangers
> > with
> > regard to case naming.
> >
> >
> Not completely true: the way I learned Modern Standard Arabic, the genitive
> *does* mark possession: the possessor(s) in the status constructus
> formation
> must be in the genitive. It's just usually invisible because the possessor
> is often followed by a pause, and the genitive ending ends up unpronounced.
>
> But cases in MSA are weird things. The subject of a clause introduced by
> 'inna and its sisters (a class of subordinating conjunctions) must be in
> the
> accusative, for instance. This inspired me so much I stole it when I
> created
> Reman. Reman is a Romance conlang that lost a lot of Romance features (no
> gender, an invariable definite article, no indefinite article, invariable
> adjectives, no copula). In particular, in Reman prepositions and
> conjunctions merged in one category, and subclauses must start with an
> overt
> subject that, if it's a pronoun, must be in its object form :) .
>
> I like doing weird things with cases. Moten has the usual suspects
> (nominative, accusative and genitive), but those are used also spatially
> (as
> an essive, lative and delative respectively) and temporally (to indicate
> time, duration and frequency respectively). It also has prefixes for other
> functions (benefactive, originative, instrumental, final and causative) but
> those are not considered cases. And as I indicated in a post to another
> thread, the nominative is only used for the subject of an intransitive verb
> or the active subject of a transitive verb. The experiencing subject of a
> transitive verb must use the instrumental prefix.
>
> It's fun to use cases in idiosyncratic ways :) .
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>

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