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CONLANG  March 2011, Week 4

CONLANG March 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: How useful is Wiktionary? (was: Naming Cases)

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 27 Mar 2011 23:55:29 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

I don't normally use Wiktionary. The quality is iffy, as you've pointed out,
but it just isn't very full yet. I have frequently not found a word I was
looking for.
I used it this time because it was one of the few sources that even
mentioned "in" with a different case, and I wanted to pursue it a little
further here (and now I'm finished with that!).

stevo

On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 2:52 PM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 25/03/2011 20:23, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>
>> Wiktionary says that "in" can also govern the dative when
>> it means "within (time)".
>>
>
> As I wrote in an earlier email, Wiktionary says wrong. "in" _never_ governs
> the dative in Latin. However, I thought I'd track down the Wiktionary entry.
> This is it:
> ------------------------------------------
> in
>  1. (governs the ablative) in, at, on (space) [quotations ▼]
>  2. (governs the dative) within (time)
>  3. (governs the accusative) into
>  4. (governs the accusative) about
>  5. (governs the accusative) according to
>  6. (governs the accusative) against
> --------------------------------------
>
> 2 is certainly incorrect; it governs the ablative with that meaning. Also
> IMO 4, 5 & 6 are, at best, misleading. It implies that all these meanings
> are more or less equally common - they ain't.
>
> The entry does not make it clear whether 4 is supposed to be 'about' in the
> sense of "concerning" or in the sense of "near by"; I assume it's meant to
> be the former which, as some here know, is usually expressed by _de_ with
> the ablative (if it's meant to be the latter, then, alas, Wiktionary is
> mistaken again).
>
> It would be very rash of me to say that 'in' never occurred with the
> meaning "according to", but it I have never come across it so used and so
> far I have not found any example of this usage (it would be useful if
> Wiktionary actually gave examples!). This meaning is normally expressed in
> Latin by _secundum_ followed by the accusative case.
>
> Having mentioned time as well as space, one wonders why Wiktionary does not
> include the meaning "till, until" which is a rather more common meaning of
> _in_ with the accusative than some it gives.
>
> Further on down the same page (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/in) we find:
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> See also
> (Mandarin) trad. 他們, simpl. 他们 (tāmen) ("they", human)
> (Mandarin) trad. 她們, simpl. 她们 (tāmen) ("they", human females only)
> (Mandarin) trad. 它們, simpl. 它们 (tāmen) ("they", non-human)
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is this right?
>
> I was under the impression that -men was suffixed to pronouns and to some
> nouns referring to _persons_, but not to words referring to things. On
> checking in "Modern Chinese - A Basic Course" (Beijing University), I find:
> "Moreover, the word 它 cannot, in general, be followed by 们 to indicate
> plural number."
>
> The Wiktionary entry is once again surely misleading.
>
> This makes me wonder about the validity of the other entries on that page.
>
> Above the Latin entry, we find:
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Etymology
> Proto-Indo-European *h₁en, cognate with Ancient Greek ἐν
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> I leave it others to say whether the PIE reconstruction is OK or not. But I
> thought I'd look at 'Ancient Greek ἐν'. I found:
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Pronunciation
> (Classical): IPA: [en]
> (Koine): IPA: [ɛn]
> (Byzantine): IPA: [en]
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> So the phoneme /e/ begins as [e], then lowers to [ɛ] in the Koine before
> reverting again to [e] in the Byzantine pronunciation! *How on earth does
> Wiktionary know this?*
>
> There is no shred of evidence given for these changes. I can understand
> when it is generally thought that /e/ had a high rather than low
> pronunciation on Classical Greek, but on what evidence does Wiktionary give
> the Koine and Byzantine pronunciations?
>
> Indeed, as the Koine was an _internationalized_ variety of Greek, serving
> as an auxlang in the Levant rather as English now does on a global scale, I
> would have thought that vowel sounds varied in a similar sort of way that we
> find in English (as witness the frequent YAEPT mails on this list). The idea
> of a standard Koine pronunciation seems ludicrous to me.
>
> I've never used Wiktionary before, but it doesn't seem the most reliable
> source to me. I don't know how others have found it.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> Frustra fit per plura quod potest
> fieri per pauciora.
> [William of Ockham]
>

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