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TEI-L  April 2011

TEI-L April 2011

Subject:

Re: filling out <figure>

From:

"Paul F. Schaffner" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 7 Apr 2011 19:53:09 -0400

Content-Type:

TEXT/PLAIN

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

TEXT/PLAIN (273 lines)

On Thu, 7 Apr 2011, Brett Barney wrote:

>
> Paul,
>
> One of the projects here is encoding whole issues of _Every_Week_, an early
> 20th-century magazine, and we've encountered all of the categories of
> difficulties you outlined. The list of elements that you suggest be added
> to the content model of <figure> is good, as far as it goes. But, in our
> experience, an altogether new element is most critically lacking and
> therefore most desirable: <caption> (or its equivalent).

Brett,

  Thank you for your consideration!

  I'd be curious to know what you would label a 'caption' in the examples 
you give. If you mean the typeset text near and related to each
of the inset illustrations, I suspect that our practice would be to 
exclude it from the <figure> tags altogether, and to bundle text and 
<figure> together into some container (e.g. a <div> or floating <text>). 
Our rule of thumb (i.e. a rule violated when convenient!), based on the 
circumstances of early printing, is to include within <figure> only text 
that is part of the engraving or woodcut, and to leave typeset text 
outside the <figure> tag. That is a little harder to apply to your 
material, but it is, e.g., how we would probably approach the individual
testimonials attached to the photographs in this example:

http://libxml1a.unl.edu:8080/everyweek/data/figures/800/ew.issue.19170402.p012.jpg

and likewise probably the "Poor Medea" text attached to
the lovely photo in this example:

http://libxml1a.unl.edu:8080/everyweek/data/figures/800/ew.issue.19170402.p012.jpg

[In some earlier projects, I have customized a
tag <plate> as a container for such things.]

And similarly also I think we would not place the
illustrated poems found here

http://libxml1a.unl.edu:8080/everyweek/data/figures/800/ew.issue.19180601.p004.jpg

within their respective illustrations, but merely bundle poem
and illustration together within some more generic
structural container, e.g. <div type="illustrated poem">,
containing <lg> and <figure>.

I'm not sure how we would deal with the sandwich boards
here, assuming that we wanted to capture the enclosed text
at all (we are selective in what we capture within illustrations):

http://libxml1a.unl.edu:8080/everyweek/data/figures/800/ew.issue.19151206.p012.jpg

<q> or in a couple of cases <q><floatingText> spring to mind as options 
(or even, if you wanted to stretch it a bit, <sp>). But in such cases our
commonest resort is to nested <figure>s, e.g.

<figure>
<figdesc>depiction of man carrying sandwich board</figdesc>
    <figure>
    <figdesc>depiction of sandwich board</figdesc>
    <p>DRINK AND BE SOBER</p>
    </figure>
</figure>

or

<figure>
<figdesc>depiction of four men bearing placards</figdesc>
    <figure><figdesc>depiction of placard</figdesc>
    <q><p>I have no opportunity to feed or educate my children.</p>
       <p>They may become criminals.</p>
    </q>
    </figure>
    <figure><figdesc>depiction of placard</figdesc>
    <q><p>I cannot read this sign.</p>
       <p>By what right have I children?</p>
    </q>
    </figure>
</figure>

But the accompanying prose, "Here, without doubt, is the human limit..."
we would again likely not include within the <figure> at all.

pfs

> Under the current
> regime of the guidelines, we think folks generally put captions in <head>
> and/or <p>. At the bottom of this message we've given links to some images
> that seem to call for something else. The first is a page with figures made
> up of a photograph + facsimile manuscript, with a single caption. The
> second is a photograph with a caption that is, in essence, a mini-article,
> composed of an epigraph/head and paragraphs. The third, likewise, has
> photographs whose captions are letters to the editor. The fourth has
> photographs of signs and sandwich boards on which legible text is written,
> with captions. The final image is of a page that we're showing mostly for
> fun--we're not even sure how to describe it, let alone how to encode it..
>
> All of these, except the last, can (and have) been encoded without too much
> trouble by dragging in <floatingText>, though it requires taking a soft
> focus on the way that element is described in the guidelines. Our objection
> to that "solution" is not so much that it's a hack as that it fails to
> provide a reliable (and therefore processible) bag for the caption:
> Sometimes the caption is in <head>, sometimes it's in <p>, sometimes it's
> in <floatingText>. The fact that using <floatingText> for all of these
> various situation means that <floatingText> children of <figure> are
> sometimes caption and sometimes not makes the situation worse.
>
> So, yes, we agree that the content model of <figure> is stingy and would
> further argue that just adding more existing elements isn't enough to raise
> it out of poverty.
>
> Best regards,
> Brett Barney and Laura Weakly
>
> Center for Digital Research in the Humanities
> University of Nebraska-Lincoln
> http://cdrh.unl.edu
>
>
> http://libxml1a.unl.edu:8080/everyweek/data/figures/800/ew.issue.19180511.p004.jpg
> http://libxml1a.unl.edu:8080/everyweek/data/figures/800/ew.issue.19180511.p011.jpg
> http://libxml1a.unl.edu:8080/everyweek/data/figures/800/ew.issue.19170402.p012.jpg
> http://libxml1a.unl.edu:8080/everyweek/data/figures/800/ew.issue.19151206.p012.jpg
> http://libxml1a.unl.edu:8080/everyweek/data/figures/800/ew.issue.19180601.p004.jpg
>
>
> |------------>
> | From:      |
> |------------>
>  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>  |"Paul F. Schaffner" <[log in to unmask]>                                                                                                      |
>  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |------------>
> | To:        |
> |------------>
>  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>  [log in to unmask]                                                                                                                          |
>  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |------------>
> | Date:      |
> |------------>
>  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>  |04/05/2011 05:36 PM                                                                                                                               |
>  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |------------>
> | Subject:   |
> |------------>
>  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>  |filling out <figure>                                                                                                                              |
>  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> <1301999342.1789.122.camel@matija-pisalnik>
>                                  <[log in to unmask]>
> <[log in to unmask]>
>            <[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> With some trepidation, since it lies so deep amongst the
> TEI strata, I would like to suggest enlarging the content
> model of <figure>. I began this as a sourceforge
> submission, but thought perhaps I should first submit it to
> the wisdom of the list.
>
> As usual, my interest is in basic tagging of commonplace
> features, in this case, illustrations in books -- but <figure>
> as currently defined seems so impoverished as to make it
> difficult to apply to many of the commoner features of
> real-world illustrations. Leaving aside the specialty tags
> and empty tags, its content model seems almost grudgingly
> doled out: little beyond <p> <head> <figdesc> <ab> <note> <figure> and
> <floatingText>. HEAD is for captions, FIGDESC for encoder-supplied
> descriptions, FLOATINGTEXT for discrete internally structured
> objects, FIGURE for nested figures, leaving P and AB for everything
> else. The guidelines quite properly point out the choices
> available to the tagger as regards various ways of
> viewing the relationship of figure and embedded text,
> and of course many figures are complex enough to make
> any attempt to capture their textual elements intelligibly
> almost hopeless--but it seems to me that many simple and
> attractive choices are unnecessarily blocked by the
> current model.
>
> Among the common features that are difficult to capture
> using this model are these four:
>
> (1) Verse. Many, many, illustrations contain snippets of verse.
>     <figure> allows <p>. Why not <l> and <lg>? There seems no way to
>     capture these at present aside from wrapping <l> or <lg>
>     in <floatingText>, or 'downgrading' the tagging to
>     <seg>s wrapped in <ab>s. My working assumption is that
>     anything that can be said in prose can be found said in
>     verse--and that anything said in verse should be able to
>     be tagged as verse.
>
> (2) Quotations. Portraits and coats of arms are among the many
>     sorts of illustrations that routinely contain quoted text
>     or quasi-quoted mottoes ("Honi soit qui mal y pense").
>     There is at present no way to capture these aside
>     from wrapping <q> in <ab> or <p>.
>
> (3) Attributions and signatures. Again, many illustrations
>     are signed or attributed ("drawn by ..."; "engraved by ...";
>     "made by ..." etc.). These attributions clearly pertain
>     to the figure itself, not to a superordinate <div> and
>     not (usually) to an embedded <floatingText>, and fairly insist
>     on being tagged as <byline> or <signed>. At present,
>     I believe, they can only be captured as a species of <ab>.
>
> (4) (Perhaps most controversially) speech bubbles. Many
>     17th-century cuts in particular contain speech bubbles,
>     and it would be convenient to encode these using TEI
>     tags, ideally core tags, rather than have to import
>     specialty comic-book markup for this common feature.
>
> Our local customization of <figure> therefore adds these
> elements to its content model:
>
> (1) l, lg; (2) q; (3) byline, signed; (4) sp, stage
>
> and I would recommend the same, or equivalent, to the
> rest of the TEI world. What does the TEI world say?
>
> pfs
>
> ---
>
> Some examples
>
>
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure01.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure02.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure03.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure04.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure05.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure06.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure07.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure08.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure09.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure10.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure11.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure12.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure13.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure14.gif
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/figure15.gif
>
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/STC_4792A-p5.pdf
>
> http://www.lib.umich.edu/tcp/docs/pix/figure/STC_18635-p21.pdf
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Paul Schaffner | [log in to unmask] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
> 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schaffner | [log in to unmask] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190
--------------------------------------------------------------------

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