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CONLANG  April 2011, Week 1

CONLANG April 2011, Week 1

Subject:

Re: The Platonic fallacy (was: Conlangs as Academic Evidence in Linguistic Studies: ...)

From:

Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 7 Apr 2011 18:37:58 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (77 lines)

In no possible definition of the word "fallacy" can Platonism be described
as a fallacy.  You can disagree with it, certainly, and not ascribe to it,
but to call it a "fallacy" is -- well, a bit baiting.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:49 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Jörg Rhiemeier, On 07/04/2011 22:12:
>
>  Hallo!
>>
>> On Thu, 7 Apr 2011 18:59:33 +0100, And Rosta wrote:
>>
>>  Jörg Rhiemeier, On 06/04/2011 16:37:
>>>
>>>> Hallo!
>>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Yep.  Grammars of natural languages are based on observations of the
>>>> actual usage of the language (often on texts that are considered
>>>> "authoritative" or "classical", but that is still "parole").
>>>>
>>>
>>> We clearly live in very different universes, you and me. I don't deny
>>> that there is a flourishing, and extremely tedious, body of work
>>> describing parole, replete with mind-numbing tables of frequencies
>>> and so forth. But there is a vastly larger, and vastly untedious,
>>> body of work that describes langue, not parole.
>>>
>>
>> We indeed live in very different universes.  You live in a world
>> of Platonic ideal forms, but how could such forms exist in a world
>> which is constantly *changing*?  The notion that every language
>> that was ever spoken or will ever be spoken, every lifeform that
>> has ever lived or will ever live, every invention that has ever
>> been made or will ever be made, every piece of art that has ever
>> been created or will ever be created, has been pre-formed since
>> before the "Big Bang" is ridiculous, isn't it?
>>
>
> It is mistaken, though perhaps not ridiculous, to describe eternals in
> temporal terms like  "since before the Big Bang", and it is ridiculous to
> conceive of eternals (platnoic forms) as existing in spacetime.
>
> But the notion that every language, every lifeform, every invention qua
> platonic form exists eternally independently of any manifestation of it in
> spacetime is not at all ridiculous; it is ontologically necessary; an
> altenative is inconceivable (to me, at least).
>
>
>  Yet, that is the
>> consequence of Platonic idealism thought to the end.
>>
>> I live in a world of constantly changing individual entities,
>> which may be in some sort of "morphic resonance" with each other,
>> but those "morphic fields" are not immutable but themselves undergo
>> change through time.  Fact is and remains that only the _parole_
>> can be observed directly, and that any _langue_ is an abstraction
>> drawn from observations of _parole_.
>>
>
> Nevertheless, the majority of grammatical descriptions have been, and have
> professed to be, descriptions of langue. But perhaps when you said "grammars
> of natural languages are based on observations of the actual usage of the
> language" you meant merely that our knowledge of langue is epistemologically
> dependent on our knowledge of parole (-- which, while not obviously true, is
> not obviously false either).
>
> --And.
>



-- 
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance.  --Arthur Rimbaud

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