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CONLANG  April 2011, Week 1

CONLANG April 2011, Week 1

Subject:

Re: A translation exercise.

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 6 Apr 2011 07:30:27 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (231 lines)

--- On Tue, 4/5/11, Cullen Kain <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: Cullen Kain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] A translation exercise.
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 3:50 PM
> On 4/4/2011 11:43 PM, Padraic Brown
> wrote:
> > --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Cullen Kain<[log in to unmask]> 
> wrote:
> > 
> >>>> In Çideaux:
> >>> Haven't heard of Çideax -- can you tell me
> more about
> >>> it? Where it's from,
> >>> where it's spoken? It does look considerably
> Gallic.
> >>> 
> >>> Where does "sudélli" come from?
> >>> 
> >>>> "I wish to know who it is who wishes us
> stopped
> >>>> wish.1SG.PRS know.INF who.ACC wish.3SG.PRS
> REL
> >>>> stop.1PL.SUBJ
> >>>> "Sudélli a sapaire quique sudéllit que
> >> arrètessant
> >>> Padraic
> >>> ---
> >>> eim vas v’ anaware, eim men meitas’
> anaware
> >>> 
> >>> as you yourselves view, so indeed one-another
> view
> >> Çideaux is an a priori language I've been working
> on for
> >> some weeks now.  It makes sense that you've
> never heard
> >> of it because I have never posted to the list
> before,
> >> despite reading it for almost six months now.
> > Alright then. I've been nomail for the last few years,
> so even if you'd
> > posted about recently, I wouldn't have seen it!
> > 
> >> It is
> >> very much inspired by French, but I've taken some
> elements
> >> from other Romance languages (e.g., pro-dropping).
> It uses a
> >> three-case system, so is probably typical as far
> as romlangs
> >> go, but it's not supposed to be just a set of
> sound changes
> >> imposed upon Vulgar Latin.  (Is it still
> considered a
> >> "romlang" if it's a priori?)
> > Judging from the text and from the definition of "a
> priori", and assuming
> > I've got the two straight, I'd say that Çideaux must
> be a posteriori,
> > rather than a priori, since its grammar and lexicon
> seem to be more
> > derived from existing language(s) than they are
> created from whole cloth.
>
> I suppose so.  Really, dividing languages into the
> black-and-white categories of "a priori" and "a posteriori"
> is bound to lead to some inaccuracies.

You're certainly right about that. If your conlang is entirely invented, 
but you use a verbal system identical to English, is the language 
still "entirely invented"?

If your conlang is basically a relex of German, but you have made up a
novel object marking system, is it now just the opposite?

Me, I don't use those particular terms, mostly because of ANADEW but also
because of nihil novom. In other words, are any of use really doing
anything truly *new*? Or are we not more or less just rearranging the
same set of blocks in a different way?

>  A more accurate
> idea would be a scale, with "completely a priori" on one end
> and "completely a posteriori" on the other. 

Possibly. Almost every conlang would be somewhere in the grey middle. And
even though you called Çideaux an a priori and I an a posteriori, I think
even it would be somewhere between the two poles.

> Çideaux is
> probably closer to a posteriori, but I have had some
> innovations in both the grammar and the lexicon (e.g., a
> pronoun meaning "then" (as in, at that time) to parallel
> French's "y" (there) and "en" (difficult to translate but
> sort of means "about which")).

OK, that's certainly a valid point -- Ç. has bits that are "entirely
invented". As fare as the priori/posteriori split goes, I'm not sure
that changes Ç. much either way. I think we all do this to some extent
so perhaps the scale itself is not so useful?

> > It's a "romlang" in so far as its roots are French,
> and it seems to read
> > very much like a Romance language, French or
> otherwise.
> > 
> > As for the three case system, I'd say that is quite
> atypical for romlangs!
> > Most of them do as modern Western Romance languages do
> and drop case
> > distinctions (with the exception of some vestiges in
> the pronouns). My
> > own Romance conlang, Kerno, has a two case system
> (akin to Old French),
> > with some vestiges of several more scattered here and
> there in the
> > syntax.
>
> I have the conception (possibly a wrong one) that romlangs
> tend to overuse case systems because their creators probably
> don't speak (at least not as an L1) a language with a case
> system, and because of that, case systems are
> "exotic."

?? I'm not aware of many Romance conlangs that have a case system. If
you mean a case system like Latin or Greek -- you know homo, hominis,
hominem, homini, homine, etc. Most of them behave very much like modern 
Spanish or French -- a singule "case" and a bunch of prepositions that 
govern the uses of the noun.

Like in Brithenig:

ill of (the man); di'll of (of the man); a'll of (to the man); llo hon,
di llo hon, a llo hon, etc. Just like Spanish: il hombre, del hombre, al 
hombre; los hombres, de los hombres, a los hombres.

Kerno has two cases:

il omm (nom) and lê nomme (obl) and all the prepositions govern the oblique
much like Old French l'homs / l'homme.

As for speaking a language with cases, English has three -- nominative,
possessive and oblique and I think German still has four -- so I'm not 
sure I'd call morphological cases all that exotic! Now, it's true that the 
nominative and oblique in English have identical morphologies (except in 
the pronouns). Well, I've used "ax" and "axe" to distinguish case for fun, 
but that doesn't really count!

>  Combine this with a conlanger's tendency to
> want his language to be interesting (no harm in that!), and
> romlangs with case systems become popular.  This is
> purely an opinion.

I certainly agree that most of us want our languages to be interesting in
some way! A Romance conlang that has a case system just because might be overdoing it (unless the historical period you're working with the eighth
century or thereabouts.

> > The present, Loucarian, while not strictly speaking a
> Romance conlang,
> > has a two case system with some vestiges.
> 
> I see on FrathWiki that Kerno is quite a pretty
> language!  In fact it's strikingly similar (at least on
> the surface) to what I was hoping to accomplish with
> Çideaux.

Thank you for the high compliment! I chose some features, like the two
case system, that would mimic and parallel French (Old French, in this 
case) and some other grammatical bits that would mimic Old Celtic 
(Gaulish, mostly, because I had no sources for pre-Welsh British Celtic. 
So a lot of the vocabulary is Celtic, even more than French, and like its 
neighbout Brithenig, it shares the (later) Celtic feature of consonant 
mutation.

I've been asked before (by non-conlanging folks) if Kerno is some kind
of French dialect. So, I guess I did reasonable job on that score!

> > I should certainly like to see more on Çideaux!
>
> I greatly appreciate the interest.  I'm really in that
> early-middle stage of the language, where I have enough of a
> grammar to write sentences and enough of a phonology to
> speak them, but the lexicon is the main issue.  

That's easy enough to rectify! That's just a matter of taking sentences
and translating them! Lexicon builds itself that way. I think I've
quadrupled the number of Loucarian words in the last month or so that
I've been working on the language again after more than ten years of
inactivity.

That's how I built Kerno's lexicon as well. Just a lot of writing and
translating.

> I'm
> working on it though and I hope to have something formal and
> nice-looking ready to present to the world soon!

Good! I for one look forward to it!

> >> Also, the verb "sudéllir" ( [sudejir] ) is my
> made-up
> >> version of French's "souhaiter," which derives
> from
> >> (according to cntrl.fr) /sous /+ /haitan/.
> > Ménage (1694) says it's derived ultimately from sub +
> optare. Although he
> > does also mention a German derivation: haitinga.
> > 
> I saw that a related word (I forget which language it was
> from) was "heizzan," which I simply love.  My made up
> pronunciation for this word was [etsan], but unfortunately I
> haven't been able to work it into Çideaux just yet. 
> Maybe I'll use it as a synonym for sudéllir.

It'll find a place. I ended up with a lot of doublets in Loucarian,
usually diachronic ones, where Etruscan would have supplied the "original"
word, Italic might provide a later version and Coptic and Greek still
later ones; what I ended up noticing was that one word will take on 
the primary meaning, while the other doublets take on secondary meanings.

So, "anouras", "sonas" and "fradres" all etymologically mean "brother",
but sonas also means cousins in the family while fradres has a more
religious or fraternal meaning of brother. 

Padraic
---
thaon newoonverver vadere adis ad Coustantiyam.

All roads lead to Constantinople.

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March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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