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CONLANG  April 2011, Week 5

CONLANG April 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Conlangs as Academic Evidence in Linguistic Studies: How Serious was Gong et al's error?

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 30 Apr 2011 16:42:25 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

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On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 1:53 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Logan Kearsley, On 25/04/2011 18:57:

> Can you give a simple example of how to get one sentence within another? If
> you have "A B C D S E" where S is an independent sentence and A,B,C,D are
> arguments of E, what mechanism stops S being taken as an argument of E?

The stop stack operators. When a sentence is ended, it is removed from
the stack and can't act as argument to anything following. However,
there can be other stuff, previously uttered and not part of that
sentence, left on the stack underneath.

>> Imagine if, in English, you had a single word that meant "find the
>> last relative clause that I used, take it out of it's original noun
>> phrase, and wait for me to tell you a new noun phrase to stick it on".
>> That's the sort of thing you have to deal with in Fith.
>
> How so? Once the relative clause and the noun have been merged into a single
> construct, the relative clause is no longer on the stack, is no longer
> visible to syntax.

Only once they are merged. But you can leave things sitting there
unmerged as long as you want.
Relative clauses were perhaps a bad structure to use as an example. A
better example might be "go find the third-to-last noun phrase that I
finished, take it out of its current sentence, and wait for me to tell
you the bits of a new syntax tree to stick into it."

>> The process itself is not mindboggling. It is logically quite simple.
>> But the results- what it can be used to do to the syntax tree- are
>> incredibly complex and context-dependent. It's kind of like Conway's
>> Game of Life. The rules are incredibly simple, anybody can understand
>> them, but no one can predict the results for anything non-trivial.
>
> I accept the general point, but reiterate my contention that almost
> everything that Fith allows, natlangs allow too  to some extent.

"Almost" and "to some extent", sure. But there's a big difference
between "I can find some way to do this in my language" and "my
language is basically designed to operate this way."

>>>> "du", for instance,
>>>> preceding a>=2-valent verb, just derives a reflexive with one fewer
>>>> place
>>>> from it, forcing the first two arguments to corefer.  But on a 1-valent
>>>> verb, it amounts to saying that the argument of this verb is equal to
>>>> the
>>>> next unfilled argument of a different verb, again found by a tree
>>>> traversal.
>>>
>>> Yes, but why is this weird? It's a kind of anaphora. One can envisage,
>>> say,
>>> "John du rocks thinks" = "John_1 thinks he_1 rocks".
>>
>> Which is how it's described- as a replacement for anaphora. But it
>> doesn't actually function the same way; properly employing it requires
>> being able to anticipate ahead of time the next time you would use
>> that anaphora and count off the elements in between the duplication
>> and the usage.
>
> Can you give an example? (use A/B/Cs or English words)

I'll use SOV instead of ABC, and P for pronoun.

Four skeletons of sentences with a pronoun in the subject position for
the last one:
S O V e. S O V e. S O V e. P O V e.

You can phrase things like that in Fith. But the more Fithian way of
doing it would be like this:

S (dup) O V e. S O V e. S O V e. O V e.

In order to make this work, I must know every time I use a noun
whether or not I will want to reference it again in the future, and
thus need to duplicate it. Then, I must ensure that any intervening
phrases or sentences do not consume that item on the stack. Then I
must remember that I have that extra never-explicitly-stated item
waiting on the stack and exactly how far down it is so that I can
extract it again when I do want to reference it.

Another bit of unnaturalness- the placeholder operators don't require
explicit counting, but they are equivalent to parenthesization, which
we also know humans are bad at and does not occur in natlangs.

>> That's precisely what I'm thinking of. The notational device is of
>> prime importance, since that's what language *is*. It's extrinsic to
>> raw logical forms, but you can't vocalize raw logical forms; you have
>> to have some serialized notation for them.
>
> Quite. But predicate logic is not the notation, it's what the notation
> represents. Predicate logic itself doesn't require counting. I don't know if
> we're disagreeing. I had said (in effect) that language is a notation for
> predicate--argument structure, and that counting is impossible for language.
> If your response was intended to be that that means that standard predicate
> logic notation is impossible, then I agree with your line of reasoning, but
> I think there's a flaw either in the premise that counting is impossible or
> the premise that standard predicate logic notation requires counting. I
> think it's the latter premise that's mistaken. Lojban places no limit on the
> number of arguments a predicate can have, but neither the available evidence
> nor my theoretical expectations make me think that bit of Lojban is
> unusable. Rather, I think it's possible to have a analysis in which there is
> a simple 1-1 mapping between a list of syntactic argument places and a list
> of semantic rol
>
>
> es, and to the extent that the grammar allows one to refer to "the x586
> sumti" (e.g. "se xi mu bi xa"), this is just a name for the argument
> position, with names (x1, x2, x3, x4, ... x586) in an ordered list and
> assigned toargument places by the same 1-1 mapping.
>
>
>> Predicates with short
>> argument lists can be dealt with easily, as demonstrated by the
>> existence of configurational languages, as long as they are isolated.
>> When you start nesting them, though, using one predicate as the
>> argument to another, you either need parenthesization, which humans
>> are bad at, or counting, which humans are also bad at.
>
> How come you need parenthesization or counting? For Polish or Reverse Polish
> notation, for instance, you don't need either.

Oh, yes you do. It's just that you're used to all arithmetic operators
being unary or binary, so you don't notice the counting. Polish
notation doesn't require parenthesization only because you know
exactly how many arguments each operator requires, and you can count
them off. But LISP, which superficially uses Polish notation, doesn't
define the length of the argument list, and hence requires parentheses
to mark it off. Without parentheses, whenever you hit a nested
operator, you have to save the current count of where you are in the
argument list and be able to come back to it later when you're done
with the nested expression.

Having a generic set of labelled argument slots (like case markers) to
fill helps to eliminate the counting (instead, you just have to
remember what's missing from the set), and I suspect that's partially
how Lojban speakers get along, but it doesn't solve the problem of
having to remember that outer context and come back to it later after
finishing all nested expressions.

>> Even taking out the parenthetical, that's not a grammatical utterance
>> in my idiolect of English. I would have to say "Oil is something
>> that...."
>
> Do you claim that you could not say "Bush, she wishes she hadn't voted for",
> and must instead say "Bush is someone that she wishes she hadn't voted for"?

No, but I claim that the second one sounds better. Object-fronting in
declaratives is possible but less likely with objects of prepositions.
The problem with the "oil" sentence is that the gap is in a nested
clause, and my version of English doesn't allow you to move things out
of nested clauses; that's what results in broken relative clauses,
which require resumptives.
I'm sure there are natural languages that allow something like that, though.

>> Well, yes. That's what Shallow Fith is. I have no problem with the
>> idea that humans can *produce* a perfectly correct subset of Fith, and
>> understand the same subset.
>
> If "produce a subset" means "use of subset of the grammar", then I'm
> claiming that humans can use virtually the entirety of the grammar.

The official definition of Shallow Fith is actually a superset of
normal Fith grammar, that introduces extra rules to produce a subset
of Fith sentences.

>> But just as you argue that nobody actually
>> speaks formalized Lojban, they would not actually be speaking formal
>> Fith.
>
> This I disagree with.

I don't understand why. It seems to me that all of the arguments
against Lojban apply equally to Fith.

>> And in comprehension they would crippled by the fact that
>> stylistically normal Fith necessarily taxes your brain to an extent
>> that is avoided in stylistically normal natlangs.
>
> I'm happy to accept that what is stylistically normal for Fith spoken by
> Fithians would be very different from what would be stylistically normal for
> Fith spoken by humans. Similar differences would be observable between
> stylistic norms of natlangs spoken by Fithians and natlangs spoken by
> humans.

But the reasons are entirely different- simple lack of skill with a
particular language vs. lack of the neurological machinery required to
develop that skill.

> Good. I understand your point. I don't think I agree, though: I tend to
> think the problem is not the simplicity of the grammatical rules so much as
> the amount of overt decomposition. (Of course, the two aren't independent:
> reduction of overt decomposition might reduce the simplicity of the
> grammatical rules.)

That is a large part of the problem, though I'm not sure it's all of
the problem.

> I expect you're right that natlang utterances can be parsed with a shallow
> stack. (I don't know of research on this, being ignorant of the literature;
> but it would make a good dissertation project.)
>
> But were you finding that Palno equivalents of natlang sentences couldn't be
> parsed with an equally shallow stack? I'd find that somewhat surprising
> (though I'm going by gut feeling rather than careful empirical
> investigation).

Yes. Not without additional rules to allow for re-ordering to take
advantage of optimization techniques, and additional rules introducing
additional levels of abstraction (I'm pretty sure this is why all
natlangs that I know of, although they vary somewhat in syntactic
classes, all have more than 2 of them). The same concepts could be
broken up into multiple simple sentences with shallow trees, but
sentences with analogous structure require far more tree complexity in
Palno than in English.

> The point I was making to Logan was that supposed weirdnesses allowed by
> Fith grammar are also allowed by English grammar, as evidenced by the
> sentence I gave. The fact that speakers are unlikely to use the sentence
> merely confirms my argument that the supposed weirdnesses of Fith exist not
> in Fith but rather in Fithian brains, and would show up in Fithians' English
> too.

Now, I don't see how this same argument doesn't apply to Lojban. If
you propose that current Lojban speakers aren't actually speaking
formally-defined Lojban, but a pidgin / subset language that happens
to produce correct Lojban sentences but is processed by human speakers
differently from how it's formally specified, can't we imagine some
alien population with brains that are built to parse and produce
actual Lojban instead, even if it's just the computers that are
supposed to be able to parse Lojban unambiguously? Then that puts Fith
and Lojban in exactly the same situation.

-l.

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January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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