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CONLANG  May 2011, Week 5

CONLANG May 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: more on histories of terms: 'glossopoeia', 'artlang', 'Gnoli triangle'

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 30 May 2011 06:34:49 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (122 lines)

On 29/05/2011 21:05, And Rosta wrote:
> [I hope it is acceptable etiquette for me to respond to
> points in the recent humungous threads without locating
> quotations from other messages and pasting them into this one.]
>
> 1. Glossopoeia
> I believe that Steve Deyo's _Glossopoeic Quarterly_ was the
> first public use of the word _glossopoeia_ (to mean
> 'conlanging, language invention'). But others before (e.g.
> me) and since have surely independently coined this obvious
> term (which has always, after all existed latently in
> English, merely waiting to be used). If _glossopoeia_ is
> currently much used today, though, then that would more
> likely arise from a reinception of the term, since
> _Glossopoeic Quarterly_ was barely known of in its day or
> the decade thereafter, and the term _glossopoeia_ never used
> (outside of discussions of terminology).

Yes, this accords pretty much with what I currently have on 
a draft revision of my web-site's Glossopoeia page (revision 
not online yet).

> However, the
> wikipedia article on conlanging that says "The term
> glossopoeia, coined by J. R. R. Tolkien, is also used to
> mean language construction, particularly construction of
> artistic languages" cites Sally Caves's Hildegard,

So it does - I must take more notice of footnotes   ;)

> and
> Sally's knowledge base is the same as ours, so it might be
> that _glossopoeia_ has never been used so much as suggested
> as appropriate for use. Inc
> identally, I wonder if Sally's book, or a hasty misreading
> of it?, is the source for the erroneous attribution to
> Tolkien? (I haven't got a copy to check.)

Nor I - it would have been helpful if the article quoted the 
actual words from the book. It is just possible that Sally 
cites something from Tolkien that the rest of us have missed.

My suspicion at the moment is that someone mis-remembered 
Tolkien's _mythopoeia_ as 'glossopoeia' and other sources 
have just perpetuated the error without checking.

But surely there must be someone on this list who has read 
Sally's "Hildegard of Bingen's Unknown Language". Can they 
confirm whether Sally attributes _glossopoeia_ to Tolkien 
and, if so, whether any reference is given?  Better still - 
Is Sally currently a list member?


> 2. 'artlang'
> It is my impression that _artlang_ evolved organically on
> Conlang List, and is simply made of _art_ and _lang_ (i.e.
> 'conlang qua work of art')

...which, of course, is what Tolkien meant by _art-language_.

> and is neither a conscious
> abbreviation of 'artistic' nor a conscious adoption of
> Tolkien's term.

Yes, I've never been convinced that it was an abbreviation 
of "artistic language." My current online unrevised page 
said from the start "artlangs ← art lang(uage)s", which is 
also what And says above. But it seems to me, in view of 
Tolkien's influence on the artlang community that even if 
the coinage was not a conscious abbreviation of his 
_art-language_, it was probably lurking there in the 
'unconscious background

> 3. 'Gnoli triangle'
> I think it is true that it was me that first called the
> Gnoli triangle _the Gnoli triangle_. The first use of it
> that I can find is in a message from me on 17 January 2001,
> replying to Rick Morneau:
>
> % Rick:
> % # What do the loglangers on this list think? Is Katanda a
> loglang"?
> %
> % I forgot to add: as far as I can recall, Claudio is the
> only other
> % loglanger/techlanger on this list (not counting John's
> role in
> % developing Lojban). I think the Gnoli Triangle, which
> defines the
> % [I forget the technical term. Qualia space?] "quiddity space"
> % [please someone give me a better term] of conlangs -- i.e.
> % the dimensions upon which conlangs can be located according
> % to their properties, so as to categorize them, uses
> "loglang" in
> % my sense, & I probably can blame Claudio for my abuse of the
> % term.... ;-)
>
> Claudio himself then replied, saying "The 'Gnoli Triangle'?
> Wow.", and then giving a short exposition of it. (I think
> the email discussion quoted from was the one that led to the
> creation of the term _engelang_.)
>
> (How I wish my email archives were more complete!)

Yes, I recall that email. As far as I remember you were the 
first to use the term. Oddly, indeed, although recently the 
use of the term "Gnoli triangle" has been attributed to me, 
and I've come across that attribution on the Internet also, 
I _do not_ (and have not) used that term on my Glossopoeia 
web-page!

So much for mistaken attribution. O tempora! O mores!,

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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