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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  June 2011, Week 4

CONLANG June 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Top Ten Invented Languages

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 07:22:06 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (114 lines)

Oh dear, this sub-thread that developed from observations
made about a fairly meaningless list of "top ten invented
languages" is getting very tedious.

I am away next week so I was intending nomail this weekend - 
but I think I shall be going nomail quite shortly and hope
all reference to this silly top ten list has stopped when I 
return.

On 23/06/2011 22:01, Matthew Martin wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:04:18 +0100, R A Brown
> <[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>
>> No more than nearly all the languages of Europe, Iran&
>> North India are diachronic variants of Indo-European.
>
> Enlighten me about what you think diachronic means?

Not a question of what _I_ think. According to Larry Trask:

"*diachronic* /daɪə'krɒnɪk/ -adj._ Pertaining to linguistic
change across time."
["A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics,"
R.L. Trask, London & New York, 1993]

The Indo_European languages are the result of linguistic
changes over the past 3000 or so years (time) from a
common ancestor we call Proto-Indo-European.

[snip]
>
>> French isn't even descended from Classical Latin, and
>> if you apply some "Grand Master Plan' to Vulgar Latin
>> you don't finish up with modern (or for that matter,
>> Old) French.
>
> This is a significant variation on the story one reads

No, is is not - at least not in the books I read.

> about where French came from. Where did French come from?

It originated in the _Vulgar Latin_ of north Gaul. Vulgar
Latin was a _sister language_ to Classical Latin - both
developed from Old Latin.

[snip]
>
> Esperanto is to Ido as Sindarin is to Quenya.
>
> I meant to express that they are both made up. They
> didn't naturally evolve from a previous language, except
> in a fictional context.

This is not true.

I do *not* want to get involved in the tedious blame-game
of what did and did not happen at the Délégation pour
l'Adoption d'une Langue Auxiliaire Internationale in 1907;
but Ido resulted from a proposal to reform Esperanto. It
evolved from Esperanto in real time - _nothing fictional
about it_, as the interminable flame-wars I once witnessed
on Auxlang only too clearly demonstrated.

While Sindarin & Quenya were constructed by the same author
(which Esperanto & Ido certainly were not), Tolkien quite
clearly intended them to be _different_ (tho related) 
languages.  I quote from JRRT himself:

"... the living language of the Western Elves (_Sindarin_ or
Grey-Elven) is the one usually met [in Lord of the Rings],
especially in names.  This is derived from an origin common
to it and _Quenya_, but the changes have been deliberately
devised to give it a linguistic character very like (though
not identical with) British-Welsh: because that character is
one I find, in some linguistic moods, very attractive; and
because it seems to fit the rather 'Celtic' type of legends
and stories told of its speakers."
[Letters, 176 - 1954]

Tolkien refers to Quenya variously as "the book-tongue",
"the high speech (of the Noldor", "High Ancient Elven",
"Elf-Latin", "Elven Latin" etc.

It seems fairly clear to me that if some analog of the
relationship of Quenya & Sindarin is needed then Latin and
French are reasonable ones. Both are ultimately derived from
a common Proto-Latin ancestor. One became a formal literary
language; the other has changed considerably over the 
centuries picking up elements of other languages to produce
something quite different.

If you know either Esperanto or Ido, you can generally read
languages without much problem. That is not true of either
Latin or French, nor is it true of Quenya and Sindarin -
there's far too much difference.

Therefore to say of Quenya & Sindarin "one [is] a
diachronic variation on the other" is not true even in
their own fictitious world; both, if you must, are 
diachronic variations of a common proto-language.  But if I
say the same of IE languages , you object!

I give up   :(

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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