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CONLANG  June 2011, Week 4

CONLANG June 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: cuneiform (was: Assyrian dictionary now free online (UChicago))

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 13:22:45 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (82 lines)

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:16:13 +0200, Iuhan Culmćrija <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> 2011/6/23 Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>
>
>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:14:46 +0100, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 23/06/2011 13:02, Iuhan Culmærija wrote:
>> > On a related-ish note: Does anyone know of a Cuneiform
>> > resource? Does it work like a normal logographic system
>> > -because
>> >
>> >No. Originally logographic - but as used for most of its
>> >history it was mainly phonetic representing syllables, both
>> >CV and VC, which meant certain conventions were needed for
>> >dealing with consonant clusters. There were, however, a
>> >certain number of logograms retained for commonly occurring
>> >words.
>
>So, in non-Sumerian (like Akkadian), 'twas almost like Japanese Kanji and
>Kana?

Yes, that's a good analogy.  Just like kanji, Akkadian script used Sumerian
words with their writings borrowed from Sumerian unaltered but meant to be
read with their Akkadian value.  

>Oh. This is what I wanted to do : create a script with grammatical markers,
>or rather, markers that convey a message rather than express an idea
>according to a specific grammar. Really deep down, I must have known that it
>was a case of ANADEW.

I don't know that it is ANADEW yet: cuneiform determinatives should probably
just be analysed as parts of spellings of individual words of the spoken
language, not as something more nebulous.  

>I always thought that in Egyptian Heiroglyphs and Chinese, each glyph
>represented a word in the language, I hadn't realised that some symbols were
>purely functional and non-spoken.

For Chinese you're right, on the usual level: one square glyph means one
syllable, no exceptions.  But very many glyphs are internally assembled from
a semantic and a phonetic component, and the semantic components are a lot
like cuneiform determinatives.  

>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 14:02:18 +0200, Iuhan Culmærija <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> >And how is the phrase "He who saw the deep" (from Gilgamesh) written in
>> >Cuneiform?
>>
>> AFAICT it's Akkadian _s^a nagba i:muru_, seemingly written _s^a nag-ba
>> i-mu-ru_ with syllabic signs.

Perhaps I should have said that this was after checking in the new Chicago
dictionary (vol N1 pg 111 heading e, and vol A2 pg 7 heading 3'; this
passage is cited in both, with the respective syllabifications I gave, with
the notation Gilg. I i 1).  In particular, I saw what Wikipedia had to offer
too:

>On Wkipedia, I found _ša naqba i:muru_ and later _ša nagbu ama:ru_. Dutch
>Wikipedia also says _imuru_ (sja nagba inoeroe).
>BUT I found a dictionary (through a French link, which is why I didnt find
>it initially) that confirms _amaru_ as the correct verb-form. 

And I believe you've drawn the wrong conclusion.  _amaru_ is the citation
form, ergo what you'd expect as a dictionary headword.  It's not the
inflected form needed here; _i:muru_ is at least some sort of preterite
(formed on the iPRus pattern with the P consonant being glottal stop >
compensatory lengthening, I think), which does fit.  

The attempt _s^a nagbu ama:ru_ at the text gets this wrong in both
instances, in fact: _nagbu_ is nominative and citation form, _nagba_ the
necessary accuative.

>It defines
>_nagbu_ as 'everything', which corresponds to the Dutch translation : "he
>who had seen everything", rather than "...the deep," used in the English.

Probably polysemy.  The Chicago dictionary lists _nagbu_ A 'underground
water' B poetic 'everything' (though as two separate entries).  

Alex

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