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CONLANG  June 2011, Week 4

CONLANG June 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Top Ten Invented Languages

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 25 Jun 2011 05:15:11 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (111 lines)

--- On Fri, 6/24/11, Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Top Ten Invented Languages
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, June 24, 2011, 5:50 PM
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 9:42 AM, R A
> Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > If one's going to argue like that one may as well say that
> > French is just a diachronic variation of Latin!
> 
> I'm not quite sure what Matthew meant by "diachronic
> variation", but I
> agree with Ray that, whether it was meant to or not, it
> sounds
> dismissive -- "Oh, X is just a variant of Y," with an
> implicit
> conclusion that it doesn't deserve a separate entry in a
> list.

For what it's worth, I didn't interpret Matthew as being dismissive at
all. "Diacrhonic variation", as I understand it, means simply that: a
language with all its versions and varieties that happen across a stretch 
of time.

In other words, French is not a monolith, existing apart from space and
time. It comes from somewhere and is turning into something else 
altogether. Look at it from the perspective of a time traveller. Find some
guy from a small town outside Paris and travel back in time along with
his ancestors and listen to their speech -- all the way back to when his
distant ancestor marched up through Gaul with Caesar's legions.

Each of his ancestors has both learned language from his parents and has
also taught it to his children; therefore each generation understands the
language of the two or three generations surronding him. And yet, at either
end of this continuum we have two quite different languages. The man from
a small town outside Paris will have no hope in understanding his 
legionnaire ancestor. Yet the two are linked, not only through the physical
connection of genetics, but also through this continuum of language.

So I think what Matthew is getting at is viewing "the language spoken in
the streets of Paris now" as part of a continuum of incrementally related
language snapshots that stretch back in time to "the language spoken in 
the streets of Rome"; rather than viewing "French" as some kind of 
monolithic system only tenuously related to Vulgar Latin.

Far from being dismissive, I have long found the whole idea of language
continuity quite satisfying. We can know and piece together a whole
spatial and temporal language community through the understanding of change
through time and space. Sure, French might lose a little of its magic
when we see it as just another dot on a cladogram that reaches across four
or five milennia and touches all six inhabited continents. I find the 
wonder of that whole concept makes up for the slight loss of luster at the
other end!

> Latin
> and French, or Quenya and Sindarin, are diachronically
> related, each
> being descended from a common protolanguage, but they're
> different
> languages, not variants of the "same" language.

All a matter of perspective. If we pick two data points:

"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 2011"

and

"the langauge spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 309"

sure, we have two obviously distinct, different and mutually unintelligible
languages. But what if we look at it diachronically -- take data points
year by year:

"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 2011"
"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 2010"
"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 2009"
...
"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 1544"
...
"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 1309"
"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 1308"
...
"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 809"
"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 808"
"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 807"
...
"the language spoken by the majority of Parisians on 25 June 309"

Now what do we see? We see something more like a single entity that changes
slowly over time, ever changing, ever evolving into something new, yet
also intimately connected to its previous instars. We think of these
langauges in terms of human lifespans -- French probably has not changed
a whole lot since any of us were born; and probably won't change much for 
our children. Yet, when we think about French (or Vulgar Latin) across 
*its own* lifespan, we see a different story. It now becomes possible to
understand the "language spoken on the streets of Paris today" as the 
Modern Vulgar Latin as spoken in France. 

At least, I think that's what he's getting at. I think it's a valid
perspective, though obviously disconcerting & off putting to some. I 
suppose it would be little different than saying that humans are actually 
a kind of fish. I know some folks fly into a rage when it's suggested that
people are "descended of monkeys" -- how much more so if we aim the
diachronoscope much further back!

Padraic

> Jim Henry

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