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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 2

CONLANG July 2011, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Base-6 Number System (Count to 35 on 2 hands!)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 8 Jul 2011 12:00:20 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (188 lines)

I can barely keep with this thread - but a few points:

[PRIME-BASED SYSTEM]
On 07/07/2011 18:27, Philip Newton wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 19:13, Adam
> Walker<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 11:14 AM, R A
>> Brown<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>
>>> Obconlang: I seem to recall at least one person in
>>> the past having a number system based on prime
>>> numbers.
>>
>> As I stated earlier in this thread, that was me and
>> Sylvia Sotomayor, in a sketch lang thrown together over
>> dinner and named Seldm.

That's only a sketch - certainly not what I was thinking of.
I had some feeling that there was at least one worked-out
conlang that used such a system

> Or, more likely IMO, Jim Henry III with gjâ-zym-byn (as
> was also mentioned earlier in the thread).

That's much more likely!

I must confess that I was rather busy catching up on things
after my week away in Shropshire - I rather skimmed though
earlier mails in this thread.

On 07/07/2011 20:15, Jim Henry wrote:
 > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Alex
 > Fink<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
 >> The original gjax-zym-byn system was prime-based; Jim
 >> has told here a few times about finding it impractical
 >> and therefore supplanting it with base systems.
 >
 > Yes; I still use the primes-based system for counting
 > small numbers of things (up to around 31), including
 > hours of the day (gzb uses a 24-hour clock).
 >
 > gzb nominally has root words for all the primes up to
 > 113,

Yes, that's the problem, it seems to me, in using a system
based on primes? What happens after 113?

In our system we can, in theory, express any number to
infinity (and beyond?). Obviously, _in theory_ one could the
same in a prime-based system *as long as one knew the full
set of prime number* which, I guess, is also infinite   :)

[snip]
 > I think Joanna Russ had, in _And Chaos Died_, an implied
 > conlang which, if it wasn't primes-based, at least had
 > root words for every number up to a fairly largish prime.

Yes, with an _implied_ conlang anything is possible.
Certainly a theoretical prime-based system is fine
for an implied conlang - but when it comes to actually
putting it into practice it seems to me that, as Alex says
above, one is likely to find it impractical.
========================================================

[LEAST SALIENT NUMBER FIRST?]

On 08/07/2011 00:57, And Rosta wrote:
 > Adam Walker, On 07/07/2011 22:51:
 >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 3:46 PM, And
 >> Rosta<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 >>
 >>> But unlike English (and Lojban), the list starts from
 >>> the units. So 1783 is "three eight seven one". Are
 >>> there other languages that do that?
 >>
 >> Why would the Livagians choose to list the least
 >> salient number first?

Good question.

 > Cognitively, last is also a salient position...

Yes, least salient, as Adam says    :)

 > The
 > rationale for the Livagian scheme is that for each digit
 > you know the value of n, where the digit is to be
 > multiplied by the base to the power of n. In neither
 > English/Lojban nor Livagian do you know the total size of
 > the number until you reach the end, but in the Livagian
 > system you can process the digit string incrementally
 > with addition:
{etc snipped]

Yes, yes - with a master's degree in computing and a
specialism (now, alas, getting a bit rusty in retirement),
I am well aware of all this as far as _machines_ are
concerned.  But when I see 1783 I do _not_ process each
digit separately and calculate the number, i.e. it simply
isn't true that ...

 > [I] have to store the entire digit sequence in memory and
 > then either count the number of digits, in order to work
 > out what each digit is a multiple of, or incrementally
 > process the digit string backwards.

I know more do that than I break down "thousand" into
individual sounds in order to process the word and know
what it is! I read of 1783 as a single unit.  Humans can
with whole chunks like this and as they can with written
words.

[snip]

As Adam remarked:
 >> They are some odd folk, those Livies!
 >
 > They are odd, yes.

I'm left wondering whether the Livies are human at all and
not rather a race of robots.

On 08/07/2011 08:49, Philip Newton wrote:
[snip]
 > On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 22:46, And
 > Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
 >> The (duo)decimal systems have various ways of
 >> expressing numbers other than 0--11. For integers, one
 >> of the methods is, like English (and Lojban), to just
 >> list the digits. But unlike English (and Lojban), the
 >> list starts from the units. So 1783 is "three eight
 >> seven one". Are there other languages that do that?
 >
 > Arabic does the order thing but not just the digits; I
 > think 1783 is "three and eighty and seven-hundred and a
 > thousand".

Yep - and IIRC it's that way in other Semitic languages.
But they do seem to be unusual among the world's
languages; numbering from most salient to least salient
does seem to be a far more common practice.

 > (So their writing the numbers left-to-right
 > [or so it seems to our conventions], embedded in
 > right-to-left writing, makes a bit more sense - the
 > numbers are read from right to left as well!)

Yes, indeed.

On 08/07/2011 09:42, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
[snip]
 > Actually, the weirdest part about writing numbers in
 > Arabic is that they tend to be written *left-to-right*!
 > It makes sense neither when comparing to the normal
 > writing direction of Arabic, nor when comparing to how
 > they actually pronounce numbers! If they just wrote
 > numbers right-to-left in the order of pronunciation they
 > would still end up with the same figures, and they
 > wouldn't have to change writing direction in the middle
 > of a line...
 >
 > I'm not sure if they do that in the whole Arabic world,
 > but I've seen it with my own eyes in Oman at least, with
 > the actual Arabic numerals (their version, not ours).

That's very interesting - it does seem to indicate that the
human tendency to work from MSF down to the LSF is a strong
one, which IMO does make Adam's question "Why would the 
Livagians choose to list the least salient number first?" a
reasonable one.

If it was because, as in Arabic, the Livies said "three and 
eighty and seven-hundred and a thousand," I could go along
with it, but I find And's explanation a trifle odd if the
Livies are human.

The Danish system is fascinating - but I'll leave my two
or three cents/pence worth at just the two points above  :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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