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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 2

CONLANG July 2011, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Base-6 Number System (Count to 35 on 2 hands!)

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:42:03 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (84 lines)

--- On Tue, 7/12/11, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> > Question: when did the vigesimal forms for 40 and 60
> die out (deux-vingt
> > & trois-vingt)? I probably picked up the habit
> after being exposed to some
> > source of Middle French, but when counting in French,
> use those in stead
> > of quarante and soisante. And obviously don't use
> octante or nonante.
> >
> >
> I didn't even know they existed! My books on Old French and
> Middle French never even mentioned those forms.

Yeah -- I've seen references up to at least dix-huit-vingts and would not
be surprised if dix-neuf-vingts were not also in use, though I haven't
personally used the vigesimals past quatre-vingt-dix. (I usually stop
at cent and then start back at un again.) Will definitely have to work on 
these numbers past cinq-vingts!

There is a good section on French numbers in J. Gvozdanovic's "Indo-
European Numerals" 463ff. It's at Google Books, and thus is readable
online. LEastways, except for the sections Google has decided to blank out -- the cheek! In fact, Gvozdanovic says that the vigesimal system is 
not that old (relatively speaking), but came into French from the Viking 
invaders.

> But I'll check tonight what they have to
> say about the evolution of French numerals. I've always had
> the impression
> that the vigesimal forms were not that old. AFAIK at the
> time of the French
> revolution most people in France still used the decimal
> septante, octante and nonante.

Indeed -- my recent reading suggests they aren't terribly old either,
but definitely older than revolutionary times.

A lot of references I've found come from the 1700s and therearounds.
 
> OK, I've found this:
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=28025&postcount=5
> It's in French, but it gives an overview of the evolution
> of the numerals.
> It mentions "deux vins" and "trois vins" as well. Weird
> that they aren't mentioned in my books...

I'll have to check in mine.

> The weirdest of all is still that Belgium kept septante and
> nonante, but
> replaced octante with quatre-vingt. What's up with *that*?

That is weird. Perhaps "contamination" from France?

> At least the
> Swiss kept them all three (although octante has now been
> replaced by huitante, it's still decimal :) ).

I think the usage in Swizerland varies by canton (obviously, only among
the Francophone ones).

> > I found it interesting to note that there is a
> language in Central America,
> > Garifuna, that counts in the French system:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garifuna_language
> >
> > With the exception of "dimi san" (50), they use the
> vigesimal system from
> > 40 on up. It looks like all numbers from 4 on up are
> derived from French.
> >
> >
> Yes, "dimi san" is obviously "demi cent", i.e. half hundred
> :) .

I found references to its use in France as well, as a unit: un demi cent
de X. Most modern references seem to be the French equivalent of "half
cent". Which is, of course, itself a translation of "demi cent(ime)". ;))

> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

Padraic

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