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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 3

CONLANG July 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Which came first, the word for "chicken" or the word for "egg"?

From:

Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:50:14 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (99 lines)

Back on the eggs, I am well out of my depth on this subject, but here goes:

What if neither "came first". I we do say that other great apes have sounds representing different foods, then is it possible to say that the "concept/word" (for "egg" at least or for "edible bird") predates human language altogether. If lower species (meerkats?) have different alarm calls for different predator species, did pre-language hominids have sounds for "oh bugger it's a lion" and "watch out, there's a load of hyenas about". I know these aren't "language" forms, but could we call them "concepts"?

On 21 Jul 2011, at 08:29, Matthew Boutilier wrote:

>> 
>> Using the best theories we have about human migration we could
>> probably also say that the first words for "mud" and "dust" are
>> earlier than the first words for "snow" and "ice". Just as "grass"
>> might have come before "pine".
>> 
> 
> this seems to imply that whenever early humans stumbled upon something they
> had never seen before (be it ice or pine trees or even fire), they would
> just make up a word for it from random jumbles of available phonemes.  it
> could be that, upon the discovery of some totally novel phenomenon, the
> tribal shaman would be consulted and spout out a word for whatever it was.
> and this isn't totally illegitimate, since the etymologies of many modern
> technical terms, for instance, are either very absurd or nonexistent.  (take
> the quark in particle physics, which doesn't really mean anything
> historically, except the imitative sound of a duck in a certain james joyce
> work; or "google," or what have you.)
> 
> but isn't it more likely that some extant lexical item was applied to the
> newly discovered thing, rather than a word being made up from scratch
> (excluding the possibility of loanwords from tribes already acquainted with
> the novel thing)?  i am no expert on this aspect of linguistic anthropology,
> but it makes sense to me that it would be far easier for the first
> snow-discoverers (who probably had to exist, as you said, given the best
> theories about human migration) to use a word that they already possessed to
> describe this new thing, or throw two or three together (cold-water,
> cold-fall, cold-fall-water, etc.), than simply to spout out a totally
> ambiguous and unheard-of string of phonemes and apply it to the new thing.
> 
> so if this is true, in what sense can the "words" (by which we mean
> historically continuous entities that evolve phonologically and semantically
> throughout time -- or do you mean something else?) for the new discoveries
> of snow or pine or fire to be "younger" than those that chanced not to be
> applied to the new discoveries?
> 
> matt
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 9:20 PM, Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Words like "chicken" and "egg" certainly predate all written history and
>>> quite possibly stretch back into such remote ages that we would now have
>>> no hope of accomplishing this task.
>> 
>> 
>> Even so  think that in some cases a compelling case could be made for
>> certain word pairs. For example, it seems reasonable to hypothesize
>> that early man occasionally raided nests for wild bird eggs for food.
>> And it seems equally likely that this happened before the
>> domestication of the wild bird that eventually, through selective
>> breeding, became the domestic chicken. That being the case I think
>> might be reasonable to hypothesize that the word "egg" came before the
>> word "chicken". As for the pairs "duck/egg", or "goose/egg", those are
>> probably impossible even to make reasonable guesses at.
>> 
>> Using the best theories we have about human migration we could
>> probably also say that the first words for "mud" and "dust" are
>> earlier than the first words for "snow" and "ice". Just as "grass"
>> might have come before "pine".
>> 
>> Considering that for a very long time only the crudest of stone tools
>> and implements were fashioned by chipping, it was probably a long time
>> after a word for "tree" that the generalization "wood" came into
>> existence, (not to mention a word for "board") and a word for "cloth"
>> certainly came long after the words for "hide" or "fur".
>> 
>> I would also guess that food was one of the earliest concepts to be
>> immortalized in verbal form. The names of the animals they hunted and
>> the berries and roots they gathered probably came pretty early. Even
>> chimps have different vocal signals depending on what kind of food
>> they've found. For all we know the first sentence ever uttered was
>> along the lines of "Hey guys, come check out these blueberries I
>> found!" At any rate, the tropical African species probably had words
>> before the more temperate and arctic species did.
>> 
>> So while I don't think we can ever put even approximate dates on
>> words, I think we might be able to put quite a few of them into a
>> reasonable chronological order. Archeologists refer to the process as
>> "seriation". I was once involved in writing some software to do
>> seriation of pottery shards for a university where I worked. It's
>> fascinating stuff. So what would the process be called for seriation
>> of words? I don't think "linguistic seriation" is quite right because
>> that sounds like it's trying to put languages into a series. Nor would
>> we be trying to put actual words in a series. Instead, the attempt
>> would be to put concepts into a chronological series that reflected
>> their relative introduction to human language as a whole. How about
>> "semantic seriation"?
>> 
>> --gary
>> 

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