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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 3

CONLANG July 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Which came first, the word for "chicken" or the word for "egg"?

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:53:25 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (136 lines)

>
> Can anyone else fill us in on the processes involved for the same word in
> other languages...
>

well, closest to those would be german, which uses a totally unrelated
root.  the operative word is "jagen" (to hunt), whence "Jagd" (the/a hunt),
"Jäger" (hunter), and "Jägermeister" (something entirely different but
equally cool).

OED (i.e. Online Etymological Dictionary) offers the following, under *jäger
* (every now and then it knows non-english words):

> "German sharpshooter," 1776, from Ger., lit. "huntsman," from *jagen* "to
> hunt," from O.H.G. *jagon*, related to O.Fris. *jagia*, Du. *jagen* "to
> hunt," O.N. *jaga* "to drive, to move to and fro" (see *yacht*<https://mail.google.com/index.php?term=yacht>).
> Applied to riflemen and sharpshooters in the German and Austrian armies.


matt

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Apparently:
>
> "hunt" from IE *kend
> Swedish "hinna" (reach)
> Old English "hentan" (seize) ~ "huntian" (as you all know, of course, OE
> had stem changing verbs)
>
> "Hunt" in English, it appears, has very little to do with any particularly
> ancient concept of stabbing animals, more as "try to seize"
>
> c.f. John Ayto "Word Origins, Second Edition" (A&C Black, London, 2008)
>
> Can anyone else fill us in on the processes involved for the same word in
> other languages...
>  On 21 Jul 2011, at 10:10, Matthew Boutilier wrote:
> >
> >> So for each language, is there some synonym
> >> for "hunt", or word closely related to hunt in meaning that has
> >> similar structure to such words in other languages?
> >>
> >
> > now do you mean phonetic structure?  that seems exceedingly unlikely,
> since
> > 1. we live in a world where such phonetically and semantically diverse
> items
> > as Eng *had* "have-PAST" and It *cattivo* "evil, bad" are closely related
> > (the former from OE hæfde < habban; latter from Lat captivus < captare <
> > capere "to seize"; so both from PIE *kep- or something; obviously this is
> a
> > stilted example, but nonetheless)
> > 2. i would argue that the *concept* of hunting-to-stay-alive hardly
> exists
> > in most modern societies.  even if it did, what reason would our
> ancestors
> > have had for not switching out their original (common) "hunt"-word for
> some
> > other word that comes to replace it in meaning?  for instance, just
> because
> > the Germans and the Dutch call bird "Vogel/vogel" and we English-speakers
> > have abandoned "fowl" for bird, it doesn't necessarily follow that birds
> > were less significant in the old UK; it's just how lexical replacement
> > works.
> >
> > matt
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 12:29 AM, Matthew Boutilier
> >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Using the best theories we have about human migration we could
> >>>> probably also say that the first words for "mud" and "dust" are
> >>>> earlier than the first words for "snow" and "ice". Just as "grass"
> >>>> might have come before "pine".
> >>>>
> >> ...  i am no expert on this aspect of linguistic anthropology,
> >>> but it makes sense to me that it would be far easier for the first
> >>> snow-discoverers (who probably had to exist, as you said, given the
> best
> >>> theories about human migration) to use a word that they already
> possessed
> >> to
> >>> describe this new thing, or throw two or three together (cold-water,
> >>> cold-fall, cold-fall-water, etc.), than simply to spout out a totally
> >>> ambiguous and unheard-of string of phonemes and apply it to the new
> >> thing.
> >>>
> >>> so if this is true, in what sense can the "words" (by which we mean
> >>> historically continuous entities that evolve phonologically and
> >> semantically
> >>> throughout time...
> >>
> >> What I am interested in is not the actual word, but the fact that
> >> humans put together some sequence of sounds that meant "snow" to them.
> >> It matters not if it was a new coinage or a mash-up of existing words.
> >> What matters is that the CONCEPT snow entered the collective human
> >> lexicon at a certain time relative to when other CONCEPTS entered the
> >> lexicon.
> >>
> >> And certainly that phonological entity has no continuity with today's
> >> words for "snow", but semantically, the concept of "snow", however it
> >> was spoken, has been passed down.
> >>
> >> What I had in mind was a seriation of concepts, with the idea that a
> >> conlang could be started with the oldest words first, and grown, much
> >> like the collective human lexicon has grown, adding new words in
> >> somewhat the same order that words for those concepts entered the
> >> collective human lexicon. It's the order of concepts that I'm
> >> interested in, not the actual mouth sounds, which are long since lost
> >> beyond all hope of recovery.
> >>
> >> ---As a wildly speculative aside---
> >>
> >> On the other hand, if we were to try to look for common ancestors to
> >> modern phonological entities then it would make sense to look at the
> >> very oldest concepts first. We might take the word for "hunt", since
> >> presumably man has been hunting since before the "Mitochondrial Eve",
> >> so given that all living humans are descended from her, 200,000 years
> >> ago, might not modern languages have traces of Eve's language in the
> >> very most ancient words? So for each language, is there some synonym
> >> for "hunt", or word closely related to hunt in meaning that has
> >> similar structure to such words in other languages? Is it meaningful
> >> that Swahili has saka for the German suche, the English seek, and the
> >> Chinese sōu xún? Probably not. But we certainly won't find traces of
> >> Eve's language in words for wheel, or printing press.
> >>
> >> (Yes, I know about Swadesh lists :)
> >>
> >> --gary
> >>
>

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