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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 3

CONLANG July 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Which came first, the word for "chicken" or the word for "egg"?

From:

Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:32:10 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (148 lines)

For "cazar" in Spanish

El verbo "cazar" viene del latín vulgar *captiare (perseguir). Captiare viene del latín captare (recoger, percibir). Este nos dio captar, capturar, catar, percatar, rescatar.

Which I assume comes from *kend as well, but I don't have any sources for this.

Me encanta el etimología

(still working on the E. Armenian; sirel ch'em stugabanut’yun haykakan)

On 21 Jul 2011, at 10:53, Matthew Boutilier wrote:

>> 
>> Can anyone else fill us in on the processes involved for the same word in
>> other languages...
>> 
> 
> well, closest to those would be german, which uses a totally unrelated
> root.  the operative word is "jagen" (to hunt), whence "Jagd" (the/a hunt),
> "Jäger" (hunter), and "Jägermeister" (something entirely different but
> equally cool).
> 
> OED (i.e. Online Etymological Dictionary) offers the following, under *jäger
> * (every now and then it knows non-english words):
> 
>> "German sharpshooter," 1776, from Ger., lit. "huntsman," from *jagen* "to
>> hunt," from O.H.G. *jagon*, related to O.Fris. *jagia*, Du. *jagen* "to
>> hunt," O.N. *jaga* "to drive, to move to and fro" (see *yacht*<https://mail.google.com/index.php?term=yacht>).
>> Applied to riflemen and sharpshooters in the German and Austrian armies.
> 
> 
> matt
> 
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> Apparently:
>> 
>> "hunt" from IE *kend
>> Swedish "hinna" (reach)
>> Old English "hentan" (seize) ~ "huntian" (as you all know, of course, OE
>> had stem changing verbs)
>> 
>> "Hunt" in English, it appears, has very little to do with any particularly
>> ancient concept of stabbing animals, more as "try to seize"
>> 
>> c.f. John Ayto "Word Origins, Second Edition" (A&C Black, London, 2008)
>> 
>> Can anyone else fill us in on the processes involved for the same word in
>> other languages...
>> On 21 Jul 2011, at 10:10, Matthew Boutilier wrote:
>>> 
>>>> So for each language, is there some synonym
>>>> for "hunt", or word closely related to hunt in meaning that has
>>>> similar structure to such words in other languages?
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> now do you mean phonetic structure?  that seems exceedingly unlikely,
>> since
>>> 1. we live in a world where such phonetically and semantically diverse
>> items
>>> as Eng *had* "have-PAST" and It *cattivo* "evil, bad" are closely related
>>> (the former from OE hæfde < habban; latter from Lat captivus < captare <
>>> capere "to seize"; so both from PIE *kep- or something; obviously this is
>> a
>>> stilted example, but nonetheless)
>>> 2. i would argue that the *concept* of hunting-to-stay-alive hardly
>> exists
>>> in most modern societies.  even if it did, what reason would our
>> ancestors
>>> have had for not switching out their original (common) "hunt"-word for
>> some
>>> other word that comes to replace it in meaning?  for instance, just
>> because
>>> the Germans and the Dutch call bird "Vogel/vogel" and we English-speakers
>>> have abandoned "fowl" for bird, it doesn't necessarily follow that birds
>>> were less significant in the old UK; it's just how lexical replacement
>>> works.
>>> 
>>> matt
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 12:29 AM, Matthew Boutilier
>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Using the best theories we have about human migration we could
>>>>>> probably also say that the first words for "mud" and "dust" are
>>>>>> earlier than the first words for "snow" and "ice". Just as "grass"
>>>>>> might have come before "pine".
>>>>>> 
>>>> ...  i am no expert on this aspect of linguistic anthropology,
>>>>> but it makes sense to me that it would be far easier for the first
>>>>> snow-discoverers (who probably had to exist, as you said, given the
>> best
>>>>> theories about human migration) to use a word that they already
>> possessed
>>>> to
>>>>> describe this new thing, or throw two or three together (cold-water,
>>>>> cold-fall, cold-fall-water, etc.), than simply to spout out a totally
>>>>> ambiguous and unheard-of string of phonemes and apply it to the new
>>>> thing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> so if this is true, in what sense can the "words" (by which we mean
>>>>> historically continuous entities that evolve phonologically and
>>>> semantically
>>>>> throughout time...
>>>> 
>>>> What I am interested in is not the actual word, but the fact that
>>>> humans put together some sequence of sounds that meant "snow" to them.
>>>> It matters not if it was a new coinage or a mash-up of existing words.
>>>> What matters is that the CONCEPT snow entered the collective human
>>>> lexicon at a certain time relative to when other CONCEPTS entered the
>>>> lexicon.
>>>> 
>>>> And certainly that phonological entity has no continuity with today's
>>>> words for "snow", but semantically, the concept of "snow", however it
>>>> was spoken, has been passed down.
>>>> 
>>>> What I had in mind was a seriation of concepts, with the idea that a
>>>> conlang could be started with the oldest words first, and grown, much
>>>> like the collective human lexicon has grown, adding new words in
>>>> somewhat the same order that words for those concepts entered the
>>>> collective human lexicon. It's the order of concepts that I'm
>>>> interested in, not the actual mouth sounds, which are long since lost
>>>> beyond all hope of recovery.
>>>> 
>>>> ---As a wildly speculative aside---
>>>> 
>>>> On the other hand, if we were to try to look for common ancestors to
>>>> modern phonological entities then it would make sense to look at the
>>>> very oldest concepts first. We might take the word for "hunt", since
>>>> presumably man has been hunting since before the "Mitochondrial Eve",
>>>> so given that all living humans are descended from her, 200,000 years
>>>> ago, might not modern languages have traces of Eve's language in the
>>>> very most ancient words? So for each language, is there some synonym
>>>> for "hunt", or word closely related to hunt in meaning that has
>>>> similar structure to such words in other languages? Is it meaningful
>>>> that Swahili has saka for the German suche, the English seek, and the
>>>> Chinese sōu xún? Probably not. But we certainly won't find traces of
>>>> Eve's language in words for wheel, or printing press.
>>>> 
>>>> (Yes, I know about Swadesh lists :)
>>>> 
>>>> --gary
>>>> 
>> 

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