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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 4

CONLANG July 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: the Shwa script

From:

Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:31:26 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (79 lines)

What I mean is, which do you select as the "basic" sound? As far as I can make out, k and k' occur in roughly equal numbers in Armenian, so why couldn't k' be the "basic" sound? Also, and I'm aware I'm being picky here, how does the /l/ velarisation system apply to dialectal variation? AFAIK, Scottish English only has dark forms and Irish English only has light forms. If we say, perhaps, that the light form is the basic form in RP with a separate velarised sound written for "pull", "dull", etc, does Irish English write only the light form and Scottish only the dark form, or must Irish and Scottish writers use the same forms as RP, i.e. having the written form disparate from the spoken form?

On 26 Jul 2011, at 21:02, Peter Cyrus wrote:

> The best I could come up with is the idea of "basic" consonants that are
> used in preference to others.  So in a language like English where k and k'
> are allophones, only the basic K is used.  In Armenian, where they are
> different phonemes, both the basic K and an aspirated K are used.
> 
> That means that the same sound (phone) is represented by two different
> letters in the two languages.  But accepting that Shwa is phonemic implies
> accepting that Shwa is NOT phonetic.
> 
> That said, English in Shwa uses a separate letter for the dark LL at the end
> of syllables.
> 
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> I wanted to ask, if Shwa is phonemic and not phonetic, how does it handle
>> phonemic distinctions in one language that are allomorphs in other
>> languages? Example: Armenian k' and k (/kĘ°/ versus /k/) and the English /k/
>> sounds or, and I'm hoping someone will confirm I haven't made this up,
>> (Polish?) dark /l/ versus light /l/ and the English /l/. Would, say, English
>> use the dark l or light l form when writing (assuming they're going to be
>> using the same letter for the same sound)?
>> On 26 Jul 2011, at 18:58, Adam Walker wrote:
>> 
>>> I find the "gaits" quite interesting.  It's one of my favorite parts of
>> this
>>> script.  I'm not convinced that the script is etirely practicle, but then
>>> Roman isn't all that practical for some of its common uses either.  I
>> just
>>> think the use of one script as an alphabet, an (at least pseudo-) abjad
>> and
>>> an abugida as well as a hangul-type script is a fascinating and novel
>> idea
>>> that is worthy of a lot more respect than it has thus far been shown
>> here.
>>> No, I'm not going to adopt it for writing English, but then I'm addicted
>> to
>>> Roman for that purpose.  But the script itself is fascinating.
>>> 
>>> Adam
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Michael Everson <[log in to unmask]
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 25 Jul 2011, at 21:35, And Rosta wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Forgive my evangelism, but I see the other features of Shwa, beyond
>>>> simply being a scratchbuilt panlinguistic phonemic script, as adding to
>> its
>>>> allure:
>>>>> - it's featural (like Hangul)
>>>> 
>>>> Why is that alluring?
>>>> 
>>>>> - it only needs a 20-key keyboard
>>>> 
>>>> Speech-to-text doesn't need a keyboard at all. Nor does a pencil.
>>>> 
>>>>> - (Mr. Everson) the option of using different gaits may make it more
>>>> familiar to people who aren't using an alphabet
>>>> 
>>>> Which means two things. One, that a given gait just makes a pastiche of
>> the
>>>> script those people are already using (so why should they wish to use
>>>> something else), and two, that it renders the script illegible to people
>>>> except for the gait they are used to.
>>>> 
>>>>> - I hope it will turn out to be beautiful
>>>> 
>>>> Which is in the eye of the beholder, of course. Though the gaits make it
>>>> unbeautiful to me, since they prevent inter-gait legibility.
>>>> 
>>>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>>> 
>> 

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