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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 4

CONLANG July 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: the Shwa script

From:

Peter Cyrus <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:01:39 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (151 lines)

(Abjad) The Shwa abjad gait IS cursive, and I hope it can be made
calligraphic, by which I mean "resembling pretty handwriting".   Yes, I hope
that all Shwa gaits will be beautiful, but not necessarily calligraphic.

It is also an abjad in that the vowels are written separately from the
skeleton of the consonants.  Arabic and Hebrew with vowels shown are still
abjads, right?  I also abuse the term "abugida", since there is no default
vowel - or perhaps the default vowel is the null vowel.

Despite my protestations to the contrary on behalf of foreigners, I don't
plan on having the Shwa Police descend on you if you omit the vowels in
Abjad gait in languages where they can be inferred.  For me, the more
important point is that it is the consonants of Semitic languages that bear
most of the meaning, and the Shwa Abjad gait keeps them recognizable as the
vowels change.

(Phonemes) We agree that there probably isn't a definitive resolution to
this problem.

For example, originally English had no voiced fricative phonemes, but the
unvoiced fricatives became voiced intervocalically.  Thus the plural of LIFE
is LIVZ, the plural of PATH is PADHZ and the plural of HOUSE is HOUZES,
whether that change is written or not.  But when the voiced fricatives
entered the language via loanwords, they became phonemes.  It's not clear to
me whether that means that the older voiced fricatives are now phonemes, too
- and those plurals are now irregular - or whether they are still allophones
of the unvoiced series.  But I think we can now hear the change.

Fortunately for me, it's not my call!  If an august body of English
academies decrees that the velar LL is an allophone, that poses no problem
in the adoption of Shwa, nor would it if they decided that stressed onsets
should be written aspirated.

Nor is it up to me to decide whether the gaits are a good idea or not.  I
see them as a positive step to improving display without interfering with
the underlying data, and I think the discussion of the Shwa Abjad gait is
another example : using this particular form of display seems to me to make
different forms of the same verb resemble each other and thus facilitate
legibility, whether or not it's really an abjad and whether the vowels are
written or not.

But if I'm wrong (as I must certainly be on many points), then we can all
just use the Alphabet gait - no prob.  I am intensely focused on the
practicality of Shwa, both as an everyday script and as a universal script
(for people who don't know the phonology).  Those two goals are often at
loggerheads, and my rule of thumb is to request compromises from both sides.


On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 12:26 PM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> On 27/07/2011 13:35, Peter Cyrus wrote:
>
>> Arabic : I agree, and apologize for it on the page for
>> Arabic.  I also mention that the abjad gait is based on
>> Islamic art - the weaving of geometric forms - not the
>> script.
>>
>
> So you do - but not on the Gaits page. I have read 'The
> Abjad Gait' section again. It seems to me that this 'gait'
> is no such thing. It's a _cursive gait_.
>
> I use cursive script for writing English if I'm doing it by
> hand and not using a keyboard. So I would expect there to
> a cursive form of Schwa.
>
> It is not a requirement of an abjad to be either cursive or
> calligraphic. Most (all?) scripts can have calligraphic
> forms.
>
> Nor is it true to say that "a piece of Abjad text should be
> beautiful." Any script, including our Roman script, should
> look beautiful in a calligraphic form.
>
> The characteristic of an abjad is that only the consonants
> are expressed - OK, both Arabic & Hebrew now use certain
> signs as 'matres lectionis' to give some indication of long
> vowels - but basically it's a consonant script.
>
> Hebrew, as I've noted above, is written with an abjad; but
> it's not written in the Arabic abjad, but the Hebrew one which, when
> printed, ain't cursive (tho there are cursive forms for hand writing).
>
> Schwa hasn't got an abjad gait:
> {quote}
> since unlike the Arabic and Hebrew scripts, the Shwa Abjad doesn't omit
> vowels: the vowels must be written.
> {/quote}
>
> It ain't an abjad, period! It's a cursive gait only.
>
> I'm afraid my view of the Schwa gaits is similar to that
> expressed by Michael Everson a day or so ago.
>
>
>  Phoneme: I discuss this on the Principles page.
>>
>
> Yes, as far as I understand on the Principles page:
> - consonants are written phonemically;
> - vowels are written phonetically.
>
>
>  Yes, Shwa (in my use of it) is not completely phonemic.
>> The idea is that foreigners won't know the phonology, and
>> so need some help with the phonetics.  I haven't yet come
>> up with a rock-solid principle governing that, but my
>> rule of thumb has been to write those transformations
>> that a typical non-linguist speaker can hear in his own
>> language.  IMHO, the use of the dark LL at the end of
>> English syllables falls into that category, while the
>> aspiration of initial unvoiced plosives doesn't.
>>
>
> Not in my experience. Trying to teach schoolkids the
> difference between English _help_ and German _Help_ is not
> easy. "What's the difference?" is the more common reaction.
>
> This certainly conflicts the Principles, hence my confusion.
>
>
>  Another principle was to show all such changes in vowels,
>> since Shwa has a lot of vowel letters (12) but in fact
>> only half the vowels of the IPA.  But the application of
>> that principle has also been difficult.
>>
>> Perhaps no such principle is tenable, and Shwa should be
>> completely phonemic.
>>
>
> That will work only in  those languages which are easily
> analyzable by the phonemic theory.  Mandarin Chinese has
> quite a few problems in this regard. As for English, the
> often recurring and seemingly endless YAEPT (Yet another
> English pronunciation thread) on this list shows only too
> well how difficult it is to reach agreement on the phonemic
> inventory of global English.
>
> The most important points is surely _practicality_.
>
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>

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