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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 5

CONLANG July 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: revisiting the artlang/engelang distinction (was: Re: van Steenbergen Hexagon

From:

David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 14:10:17 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (85 lines)

On Jul 29, 2011, at 6◊54 AM, Alex Fink wrote:

> Well, this distribution isn't random either!  My example was flip, yes, and
> I certainly made a bad case for myself above; but phonosemantics and sound
> symbolism exist, and they're exactly what you're asking about here.  I think
> you còuld give an entirely sensible breakdown for English of e.g. "stump".  
> 
> There are artlangs out there which make even more throughgoing use of sound
> symbolism (I recently read
> http://tzirtzi.ipage.com/akana/index.php?title=Jamna_Kopiai which makes this
> claim, for instance).   

No, sound symbolism is different—and all naturalistic artlangs use sound symbolism intentionally, I thought (or ought). For example, from Sathir:

twaja "sky"
twajes "white"
tweja "moon"
twoja "gem"

What I'm talking about is creating words that are analyzable, but without an obvious meaning. If a sound symbolic pattern was as ubiquitous (and as regular) as, for example, the /-ly/ suffix in English, you couldn't call it sound symbolism in any realistic sense. But if you had a series of roots that produced combinations like this:

haka "glove" > hakaly "hand"
nemo "sea" > nemoly "sky"
uve "lion" > uvely "oak tree"
masti "sailboat" > mastily "dock"
kela "gecko" > kelaly "tambourine"

…times 100 or more, you'd have to say that this was a suffix and that it had no discernible meaning*. You could have even more fun by combining these in ways that other affixes combine but dependent on no discernible pattern. So, for example, we have evidence of ordering in English with groups like this:

dark <-> to darken <-> to redarken <-> *redark

That is, this shows that /re-/ applies to "darken" (or, more generally, to verbs) and not to "dark" (or, more generally, not to adjectives). You could have the same thing with a language like this, but rather than having the infelicitous combinations based on other criteria:

haka <-> hakaly <-> ihakaly "finger" <-> ihaka "sea lion"
nemo <-> nemoly <-> inemoly "chicken" <-> *inemo
uve <-> uvely <-> iuvely "moon" <-> iuve "button"
masti <-> mastily <-> imastily "paper" <-> *imasti
kela <-> kelaly <-> ikelaly "stick" <-> *ikela

These examples, again, are random, and so aren't interesting. The potential exists to *make* this interesting, though—something like bizarre class membership for noun classes, except ported to the derivation morphology in a way that's demonstrably not a noun class system. (In fact, you could probably add a noun class system to this, so that roots by themselves are unusable: they have to have some sort of noun class suffix to be a noun, and then other morphology to be used as a verb or an adjective.) To do it right, one would have to strike a delicate balance between random for the sake of random, and figure-out-able non-obvious class membership (if it's just non-obvious but everything has some sort of key, the language would basically become a puzzle [which, admittedly, could also be interesting]).

*We do kind of have this in English with /-le/, /-en/, e.g. "little", "scuttle", "waggle", "muddle" and then "chicken", "maiden", "mitten", "kitten", etc. (realize some of those have etymological explanations), but for the most part ("waggle"'s a nice exception), they're non-productive and apply to bound stems.

> I guess sound symbolism is basically a counterexample to the strict
> statement of Hockettian duality of patterning, and your idea could be cast
> as salvaging it by bumping it up to _triality_ of patterning and having the
> funny half-meaningful elements run around in a new layer just for them.  

And now I wonder what a fourth layer might look like… Ooh! Color. If this were a visual language, and the color didn't match up either with the phonology, the morphology or the semantics, that's a fourth layer (so that you could have blue words, words that end in /-ly/, words that refer to mammals, and words that start with /k/—and words that belong to noun class I—and while there would be overlapping membership in all groups, no single group would overlap entirely with another). In fact, I bet you could come up with others, as well. It might rather turn out like Ulysses—cf. Joyce's schema below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_schema_for_Ulysses

> But getting off the phonological tangent, an idea which seems to strike
> people now and again which I am reminded of is the language which is "purely
> connotative, as opposed to denotative", or some such (for one, this
> oft-cited Star Trek example with Darmok).  One way to do that is with
> something like Glide, I guess.  But if you don't simply renounce being able
> to say specific things, then it's easy to come to think that, if you want to
> say e.g. "rabbit", you just have to connote at it from various sides in a
> relatively fixed pattern; then the bag of connoters you use may as well be
> given "rabbit" as a denotation.  And then we're in about the situation of
> your proposal.

The way I've always figured that that language *had* to work was that the Darmokians (don't know their real name) had a fully functional language: They just refused to use it (taboo replacement gone wild!). That's the only way, I figure, that the Universal Translator would translate it literally without turing the aphorisms into comprehensible language. Anyway, if that's the case, any conlang could be turned into Darmok and Jilad.

One thing that helped the Darmokians is that they only ever seemed to describe emotions, situations or events, not common objects. So (and there's no way I can remember all of them; there might be a list online) there were things like:

Darmok and Jilad at Tanagra = A situation where two warriors were forced to work together and, thereby, forged a bond. Used to mean, "Let's do that and the results will be replicated with us."

Shaka when the walls fell = Some guy named Shaka to whom, evidently, bad things happened when the walls around or associated with him fell. Used to describe failure of all kinds.

Then there were a couple others, but I forget the names ("his arms wide", "on the sea", "his eyes unfurled(?)", and several I won't remember used by Captain Picard at the end of the episode, and by the captain of the other ship at the beginning and end of the episode). But these phrases are never used to describe nouns, and make use of other nouns (e.g. "wall", "sea", "arm", "eye", etc.). One could easily imagine, say, Darmokians who aren't a part of the space-faring Darmokians, but who live in close proximity, that speak normally and can't stand the Darmokians that speak in aphorisms.

But regarding the last part (this was more how to make Darmokian as it is in the show work), actually, that would be quite funny: a language whose "phonology" was GIGANTIC, and whose "phonemes" consisted of entire words. So if "rabbit" was "beloved of Dontus of Karash", and pretty soon words like "beloved" and "of" lost their meanings, you'd have a word (broad transcription) [bəlʌvɨdəvdontɨsəvkəɹæʃ] that meant "rabbit". And with sound changes, pretty soon you might no longer be able to pick out the individual words, so that one would need a pickaxe to get the original language out of the current one!

> This is another type which I haven't seen a good mature example of.  


I've only seen one example, period (I followed it in a relay, but hadn't yet seen that episode of Star Trek, and so was hopelessly, hopelessly lost). Have you seen others?

David Peterson
LCS President
[log in to unmask]
www.conlang.org

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June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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December 2003, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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