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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 5

CONLANG July 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: ablaut diachronics

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:23:13 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (90 lines)

 thanks for the interesting information regarding the tone ordering; i had
never encountered such research before.

do the accent alternation patterns have anything to do, however, with the
ablaut grade choice?  ablautwise i'm not following.


> Bsel asa m, a m atha cvanthal a cvanth atha mel
>

is this john 1:1?  i think:
Bs = beginning
-el/-al = LOC
m = Word
cvanth = god
a = and
asa/atha = was

what does SiM stand for if i may ask?  why does m have what i am guessing
to be the LOC suffix at the end?

matt

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Jrg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Friday 29 July 2011 07:31:01, Alex Fink wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 28 Jul 2011 18:38:19 +0200, Jrg Rhiemeier <
> [log in to unmask]>
> >
> > wrote:
> > >IMHO the hysterodynamic accent-ablaut paradigm, with accent
> > >alternating between the last vowel of the stem and the ending,
> > >is the most archaic, and points to a penultimate accent in
> > >Pre-PIE, but that hypothesis, neat as it is, leaves a very
> > >large and messy residue which needs to be accounted for by
> > >additional rules.
> >
> > What leads you to think that?
>
> I am not sure about that idea, and I have to admit that it is
> speculation on my side.  But it seems likely to me that the
> endings which cause a rightward shift of the accent originally
> were bisyllabic, while the others were monosyllabic.  That would
> reduce the hysterodynamic accent alternation pattern to a simple
> penultimate accent.  Perhaps it is time to say "good riddance"
> to this idea, though.
>
> > I have found convincing the proposal of Dybo and Nikolaev that the origin
> > of the PIE accent alternations is tone.  There was formerly a high-low
> > tonal contrast on each syllable, the theory runs, which developed into
> the
> > reconstructed pitch accent by all but the last high tone in a word going
> > low, and acquiring a default accent position (I forget which) in all-low
> > words.  The mobile paradigms then are the cases in which high-toned
> > suffixes can steal the stress position from the root.  (I guess this
> means
> > some stems forced low tone on suffixes, to get static paradigms.)
> >
> > Dybo I think has actually noted correlations between the phonation of
> stops
> > in PIE roots and their accent paradigm which under this theory trace back
> > to preferences of *high tone after *voiceless stops and *low tone after
> > *voiced stops, which is quite a good way to see things line up.
> >
> > Unfortunately I can't re-find a good paper I once read on this, to
> refresh
> > my own memory and give better details, but
> >   http://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/tonacc.pdf
> > at least draws analogies with observable Caucasian situations.
> >
> > (Basilius, can you say better?)
> >
> > Alex
>
> Dybo, Nikolaev and Starostin, you ought to be aware, have
> produced many things most specialists in the relevant fields
> either reject out of hand or at least consider speculative.
> That of course doesn't mean that they are wrong, though.
> I'll read the paper when I find the time to do so; it looks
> interesting.  Thank you!
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bsel asa m, a m atha cvanthal a cvanth atha mel." - SiM 1:1
>

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