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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 5

CONLANG July 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: the Shwa script

From:

Peter Cyrus <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:33:54 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (150 lines)

You consider the Alphabet gait to be "ordinary" because you're used to
writing in an alphabet.  But only about a quarter of the world uses an
alphabet, and for the others, they would consider their own script type to
be "ordinary".  It's just a small courtesy to present text in a familiar
form, and in several cases it also contributes to legibility by highlighting
the important things.  I consider that to be the case with the Abjad gait
for Semitic languages, since the vowels are extracted from the consonantal
skeleton (whether written or not) and with the Character gait for Chinese,
since syllables are made evident.

When Sejong (or someone else) invented Hangul for Korean, he chose to lay
out his phonemic script in characters, because that's what Koreans were used
to from *hanja*, and it happens also to be a good match for Korean, in which
syllables are preeminent.  Your and Mr. Everson's comment that  "a given
gait just makes a pastiche of the script those people are already using (so
why should they wish to use something else)" applies just as well to Hangul,
which is a huge success.  And in fact Mr. Everson is called "Alphabetician
to the World", and his comment applies equally well to his own work (which I
admire).

With Shwa, I am just trying to offer a useful tool for writing and reading,
not convert everyone to alphabets.  For example, the pinyin romanization of
Chinese suffers because the Latin alphabet lacks some letters for Chinese
phonemes (rounded i and unrounded u, the retroflex series), because the
assignment of letters to phonemes is somewhat non-standard, and because the
Latin alphabet does not indicate syllable breaks or tones natively.  Shwa
can do a better job, with some other advantages, and writing each syllable
in Character gait not only adds information but it makes text more familiar
for Chinese readers.

Of course you're free to disagree, and even to dismiss Shwa.  I posted on
this site in the hope of getting criticism, and I've been amply rewarded
(although I was hoping that some of you would try it for your conlangs).
 For example, I have been made to think more deeply about the phonemes, and
hope to improve the governing principle.  I've amended my remarks on the
Abjad gait to open it for use without vowels, and I am thinking about making
schwa a default vowel for Abugida gait and marking (or ligating) clusters
and final vowels, since that might be an improvement.

But I would appreciate being able to pin down your dislikes.  Do you only
like alphabets?  Do the Shwa gaits (and Hangul and Japanese kana) seem like
parodies of scripts to you?  Do you dislike a script with multiple gaits,
e.g. the Latin alphabet in cursive or smallcaps, Chinese vertically and
horizontally?  Is it only the gaits (one page out of more than 20) that you
dislike - if Shwa were Alphabet gait only, you'd be less dismissive?

As far as the smaller points:

Shwa in Abjad gait, especially if short vowels are optional in Semitic
languages, is as much of an abjad as Arabic or Hebrew script.  The ideals of
Abjad, Abugida, Alphabet, Syllabary and Character are probably never
attained in practice, but they are approached, and IMHO Shwa gets close
enough to be useful, although I still hope to improve it.   An alphabet is
supposed to represent phonemes with letters, but we still consider this
Latin script to be an alphabet, even though some English phonemes are
represented with digraphs.  (Side note: maybe it would be interesting and
easy to write English with stressed vowels in the upper half of the line of
text, since English has no good way to indicate stress).

Most Muslims do not use the Arabic script in daily life (speakers of
Turkish, Indonesian, Bengali, etc) and it doesn't seem to be a problem.  I
imagine that they may read the Qur'an in Arabic in the Arabic script, but I
doubt that they would read the Qur'an in Arabic script when translated into
their native or national languages.  And after all, Gabriel spoke to a
messenger who couldn't read or write - the script is not holy.

Dravidians may choose to write in Alphabet or Kana gait, or the addition of
a default schwa to my Abugida gait may make it worthwhile for them to use
it.  Perhaps the topline should be optional, too, although I see it as an
effective way to unite words.

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:15 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> On 28/07/2011 10:29, Michael Everson wrote:
>
>> On 28 Jul 2011, at 09:21, Peter Cyrus wrote:
>>
>>  Whether I have misnamed the gait shouldn't affect your
>>> (dis)like of it!
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't.
>>
>
> Indeed not.
> =============================**===============
>
>
> On 28/07/2011 09:21, Peter Cyrus wrote:
> > Whether I have misnamed the gait shouldn't affect your
> > (dis)like of it! How about if I explain that the Abjad
> > gait is so named because it's intended to be used for
> > languages that now use abjads?
>
> Hebrew?
>
> [snip]
>
> > For me, a far more telling criticism of Shwa's abjad gait
> > is that I tried and failed to develop one that more
> > resembles Nastaʿlīq,
>
> So it's really 'The Perso-Arabic gait'.
>
> As far as the ordinary (i.e. alphabetic) Schwa script is
> concerned, I neither like it or dislike it.  But I do
> dislike the 'gaits'. As Michel Everson observed and, as I
> repeated in my last email, "a given gait just makes a pastiche of the
> script those people are already using (so why should they wish to use
> something else)."
>
> Why would the Persians or the Arabs or, indeed, any who use
> related scripts want to change?  It is quite inconceivable
> any Muslim would countenance the Arabic of the Koran being
> transcribe into the so-called Schwa 'abjad gait.' As long
> the book stays written in the traditional Arabic script, the
> Arabic script is going to continue to be used.
>
> Also, we find on http://www.shwah.net/gaits.htm it stated,
> quite correctly, that the 'Schwa abugida' is "not a true abugida."  Indeed,
> it is not. It's the 'Nāgarī gait'. It
> mimics Devanāgarī, Bengālī, Gurmukhī and related scripts.
> I can't imagine it appealing to those in southern India who
> use quite different abugidas.
>
> I find myself in agreement with Michael Everson:
>
> n 21/07/2011 15:51, Michael Everson wrote:
> > On 20 Jul 2011, at 07:33, Philip Newton wrote:
> >
> >> I was ready to dismiss it as something with not enough
> >> expressiveness to represent non-English languages, but
> >> when I started reading the description, I saw that that
> >> was not true at all.
> >
> > The "gait" business makes it easier to dismiss, though.
>
> Amen.
>
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>

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March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
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September 2000, Week 1
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June 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 1
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May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
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