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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 5

CONLANG July 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: the Shwa script

From:

Peter Cyrus <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 18:08:13 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (126 lines)

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

It seems that I may have to come up with another solution for lateral
fricatives, rather than using the happily vacant (I thought) slots for
retroflex sibilants.  I'll add that to my to-do list.

The labial trill is no problem: the rhotic top can go over the labial bottom
for that.  I'll add it.

The glottals don't have a top that can be reversed to show voicing, but I
chose to assign them so that they'd be correct if rotated 180 degrees.  The
bottoms of other fricatives show place, so there's no correspondence.

I hesitated over an open front rounded vowel (actually an open-mid
front rounded vowel), but decided against it based on the two languages for
which the strongest claim can be made, as far as I know - French and Danish.
 In both cases, the distinction seems to be disappearing, and most French
people I asked (I live in France) seemed unaware of it.  Wikipedia says a
true open front rounded vowel exists only as an allophone.

I mention that the front rounded and back unrounded series can also function
as mid vowels.  Do you have an example of a contrast that leaves unmarked?
 The best example I know is Norwegian and Swedish u, and there I use the
back unrounded ih letter simply because it's close.

I have tried to mark only distinctions that involve minimal pairs in some
language, not phonetically-motivated distinctions.  My guiding thought has
been to provide a script which could be adapted for use by lots of
languages, just as the Latin alphabet has.  The hope that that might be
accomplished with no grimacing is over-optimistic, but I would like to think
that Shwa does it with only minimal grimacing.

I"m ashamed to admit I had never seen any of those feature alphabets before
- thank you for bringing them to my attention.  Of course I prefer Shwa, but
my judgement is biased.  The principles are very similar, but I find the
Shwa cleaner.



On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Paul Roser <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I'm coming a bit late to the discussion of Shwah, but I did want to make a
> couple of observations.
>
> First, regarding the difference between phonemes and phones - I subscribe
> to
> the notion that phonemes are abstractions. Broad phonetic transcriptions
> are
> not terribly distinct from phonemic transcriptions, and if you want it to
> be
> truly universal, I think that having more symbols is preferable to having
> fewer.
>
> Specifically, you have a symbol for the retroflexed trill in Toda, but you
> use
> the retroflexed fricative symbols for lateral fricatives, which
> shortchanges
> Toda which has four series of sibilants (alongside several Northwest
> Caucasian
> languages, which have as many or more series of sibilants), as well as
> ignoring the fact that Toda also has two lateral fricatives, one
> dental/alveolar
> the other retroflex. Clicks are fairly well handled, but I would have liked
> to
> see a symbol for the labial trill.
>
> If you want to encourage conlangers to use Shwah, I think you need to make
> allowances for more distinctions rather than fewer, since some of us are
> inclined to large or unusual phonemic systems.
>
> That said, Shwah reminds me of a number of other featural alphabets that
> have come along over the years. The first I encountered was Herman Miller's
> Lhoerr, which had the advantages of being flexible, fairly easy to write,
> and
> also including even symbols for some rather unusual sounds (whistles, for
> instance).
>
> If you check out Omniglot, there are at four others -
> + Embet
> + Belvar
> + Phon
> + Unviersal Phonetic Alphabet
>
> I like Belvar for its consonants, but it limits itself to a
> voiced/voiceless
> opposition and has no allowance for things like tone or non-modal
> phonation.
> It has a reasonably iconic system that suggests a very, very elaborate
> version
> of Tolkien's tengwar.
>
> Phon & the UPA both have impressive coverage of manners of articulation,
> points of articulation and many of the distinctions which the IPA relegates
> to
> diacritics, but the distinctions are difficult to read and write quickly.
>
> Shwah, in contrast, has fairly easy to read system for indicating
> differences
> between points of articulation and manners (though I think the symbols for
> voiced and voiceless glottal are reversed from what they should be in
> comparison to other fricatives), and I do think you need at least a
> distinct
> symbol for the open front round vowel that is distinct from 'er', though a
> central series of vowels wouldn't be amiss either.
>
> I also liked the treatment for ejective, implosive and aspirated stops, but
> suspect that you don't have enough tone symbols. And the slender symbols
> for
> the laryngeals and pharyngeals could be pressed into used for differences
> in
> phonation (breathy, creaky, whispery, harsh).
>
> As far as the gaits go, I don't know that I would be likely to use any but
> the
> alphabetic gait, mostly since it's what I'm accustomed to, but I do give
> you
> points for even thinking of them, since I know of no other constructed
> writing
> system that has something like it.
>
> Pfol
>
>
>
>

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