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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 5

CONLANG July 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: the Shwa script

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:45:49 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (140 lines)

I have no natlang input, but you said you want Shwa to be usable for
conlangs too so... I have an old lang previously called Aeuia, now
just Ae. It has only vowels, no consonants. There are high, mid and
low, front, central and back POAs. All 9 POAs can be round or unround
giving 18 vowels.  What would Shwa do with that? All 18 vowels can
have any of normal, nasal, breathy, creaky or rough phonation. There
are also length and tone distinctions. Adam

On 7/30/11, Peter Cyrus <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
>
> It seems that I may have to come up with another solution for lateral
> fricatives, rather than using the happily vacant (I thought) slots for
> retroflex sibilants.  I'll add that to my to-do list.
>
> The labial trill is no problem: the rhotic top can go over the labial bottom
> for that.  I'll add it.
>
> The glottals don't have a top that can be reversed to show voicing, but I
> chose to assign them so that they'd be correct if rotated 180 degrees.  The
> bottoms of other fricatives show place, so there's no correspondence.
>
> I hesitated over an open front rounded vowel (actually an open-mid
> front rounded vowel), but decided against it based on the two languages for
> which the strongest claim can be made, as far as I know - French and Danish.
>  In both cases, the distinction seems to be disappearing, and most French
> people I asked (I live in France) seemed unaware of it.  Wikipedia says a
> true open front rounded vowel exists only as an allophone.
>
> I mention that the front rounded and back unrounded series can also function
> as mid vowels.  Do you have an example of a contrast that leaves unmarked?
>  The best example I know is Norwegian and Swedish u, and there I use the
> back unrounded ih letter simply because it's close.
>
> I have tried to mark only distinctions that involve minimal pairs in some
> language, not phonetically-motivated distinctions.  My guiding thought has
> been to provide a script which could be adapted for use by lots of
> languages, just as the Latin alphabet has.  The hope that that might be
> accomplished with no grimacing is over-optimistic, but I would like to think
> that Shwa does it with only minimal grimacing.
>
> I"m ashamed to admit I had never seen any of those feature alphabets before
> - thank you for bringing them to my attention.  Of course I prefer Shwa, but
> my judgement is biased.  The principles are very similar, but I find the
> Shwa cleaner.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Paul Roser <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> I'm coming a bit late to the discussion of Shwah, but I did want to make a
>> couple of observations.
>>
>> First, regarding the difference between phonemes and phones - I subscribe
>> to
>> the notion that phonemes are abstractions. Broad phonetic transcriptions
>> are
>> not terribly distinct from phonemic transcriptions, and if you want it to
>> be
>> truly universal, I think that having more symbols is preferable to having
>> fewer.
>>
>> Specifically, you have a symbol for the retroflexed trill in Toda, but you
>> use
>> the retroflexed fricative symbols for lateral fricatives, which
>> shortchanges
>> Toda which has four series of sibilants (alongside several Northwest
>> Caucasian
>> languages, which have as many or more series of sibilants), as well as
>> ignoring the fact that Toda also has two lateral fricatives, one
>> dental/alveolar
>> the other retroflex. Clicks are fairly well handled, but I would have
>> liked
>> to
>> see a symbol for the labial trill.
>>
>> If you want to encourage conlangers to use Shwah, I think you need to make
>> allowances for more distinctions rather than fewer, since some of us are
>> inclined to large or unusual phonemic systems.
>>
>> That said, Shwah reminds me of a number of other featural alphabets that
>> have come along over the years. The first I encountered was Herman
>> Miller's
>> Lhoerr, which had the advantages of being flexible, fairly easy to write,
>> and
>> also including even symbols for some rather unusual sounds (whistles, for
>> instance).
>>
>> If you check out Omniglot, there are at four others -
>> + Embet
>> + Belvar
>> + Phon
>> + Unviersal Phonetic Alphabet
>>
>> I like Belvar for its consonants, but it limits itself to a
>> voiced/voiceless
>> opposition and has no allowance for things like tone or non-modal
>> phonation.
>> It has a reasonably iconic system that suggests a very, very elaborate
>> version
>> of Tolkien's tengwar.
>>
>> Phon & the UPA both have impressive coverage of manners of articulation,
>> points of articulation and many of the distinctions which the IPA
>> relegates
>> to
>> diacritics, but the distinctions are difficult to read and write quickly.
>>
>> Shwah, in contrast, has fairly easy to read system for indicating
>> differences
>> between points of articulation and manners (though I think the symbols for
>> voiced and voiceless glottal are reversed from what they should be in
>> comparison to other fricatives), and I do think you need at least a
>> distinct
>> symbol for the open front round vowel that is distinct from 'er', though a
>> central series of vowels wouldn't be amiss either.
>>
>> I also liked the treatment for ejective, implosive and aspirated stops,
>> but
>> suspect that you don't have enough tone symbols. And the slender symbols
>> for
>> the laryngeals and pharyngeals could be pressed into used for differences
>> in
>> phonation (breathy, creaky, whispery, harsh).
>>
>> As far as the gaits go, I don't know that I would be likely to use any but
>> the
>> alphabetic gait, mostly since it's what I'm accustomed to, but I do give
>> you
>> points for even thinking of them, since I know of no other constructed
>> writing
>> system that has something like it.
>>
>> Pfol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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