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CONLANG  July 2011, Week 5

CONLANG July 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: revisiting the artlang/engelang distinction (was: Re: van Steenbergen Hexagon

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 15:47:09 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (129 lines)

I agree wholeheartedly with Padraic here. It is the language within
the culture that I find interesting. Teonath is a marvel because of
its entertwining of language and culture. The language would not be
half so interesting without the world. All the really good languages
have well concieved worlds/cultures/histories attached. One without
the other is inherently lacking. Adam

On 7/31/11, Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> --- On Sun, 7/31/11, David Peterson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> > I invite youse to consider the artlangs that command
>> the widest appreciation
>> > among conlangers. Setting aside the physical -
>> phonetic,  graphic - (so
>> > setting aside e.g. Kelen knot writing), what is it
>> about Teonath,
>> > Okuna/Tokana, Miapimoquitch, Kamakawi, Quenya et al.
>> that gives them their
>> > wide appeal? I think it has to do with the richness
>> and detail of their
>> > linguistic-world models.
>>
>> There are actually two types of fans here, and they're
>> quite different, I've come to discover. It's especially
>> noticeable if you look at the fan communities for any of the
>> languages used in movies/TV shows (Klingon, Na'vi, Dothraki,
>> etc.). The conlang fan (and I think most conlangers are this
>> way) is interested in the language qua language: How it
>> works, what choices were made, how authentic it is, etc.
>> However, the bulk of the fans are not fans of the language
>> at all: They're fans of the culture (or culture fans). They
>> come to the language simply because it exists and is tied to
>> the fictional race. The latter would be fans of the language
>> if it was a cipher of English. In fact, any natural
>> tendencies (like irregularities) are likely to be seen as
>> annoyances by the culture fan: they'd prefer it to be
>> perfectly regular so they can hurry up and *speak* it. This
>> produces a rather strange dichotomy, I've found: the conlang
>> fan, though more interested in the language itself, is not likely to be
>> interested in using the language; the
>> culture fan, though not that interested in the language
>> itself, is much, much more likely to be interested in using
>> the language—a lot, in fact.
>
> I think that is overly simplistic -- a dichotomy between presumably more
> intelligent minority "language fans" who are engaged by the details and
> inner workings and the presumably unintelligent herd of the "culture
> fans" who would apparently not understand the inner workings of a language
> if it stood up and bashed them on the heads with all the ablaut it could
> manage?
>
> As is usually the case, the truth is far more complex than a mere "this or
> that" scheme would have one believe. There are certainly people who are
> fans of conlangs and those who are fans of concultures; but I think there
> are many that fall in between the extremes. For example, I am *not* a fan
> of conlangs as languages. But neither am I an ignoramus who would be a
> fan even if the conlang were an English cipher!
>
> It's true that I pay little or no attention to conlangs that have no
> cultural context. Unless done for some kind of experiment or purely
> intellectual exercise, I see little point in making a form of speech if
> you're not also going to address the issues of who is going to speak it,
> and what those people are like and how they behave. In other words, a
> language existing in a vacuum is of almost no interest to me. This doesn't
> mean that a conlang is just a tiny fragment of a greater whole or that
> the conculture is a "necessary evil". The two go so much hand-in-hand as
> to be inseparable. When I start out with a tentative conlang, I invariably
> end up asking "what about the speakers?" When I start out with a tentative
> conculture, I invariably end up asking "how do these people speak?" At the
> end of the day, I always end up with two things: a conlang and a conculture
> though one or the other may be more or less well developped.
>
>> To the point, though, while there's surely some crossover
>> (there are conlangers that have more of an admiration for
>> invented cultures, and culture fans that come to appreciate
>> a conlang for what it is), I'd say most culture fans that
>> are fans of conlangs don't care much about the language at
>> all—and, as a result, I wouldn't count them as actual fans
>> of the language. To me, that'd be like suggesting that fans
>> of Astrud Gilberto are fans of the Portuguese language.
>
> Given that so many conlangers have in fact devised often quite well
> developped cultures for their languages, I think that many more than you
> perhaps give credit for fall into this "crossover" category. Frankly, I
> think that most of us probably fall into this conlanger-conculturer
> category than at the extremes. I think the best conlangs ever published
> here are those that have been intertwined with their concultures.
>
>> Anyway, back to your examples, let's separate them and add
>> more. What gives Quenya, Klingon, Na'vi and Dothraki their
>> wide appeal? It's their association with a much more famous
>> work (Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, Avatar and Game of
>> Thrones).
>
> Agreed. These are widely known even outside the hallowed halls of Conlang.
> But I don't think they are necessarily "appealing" to the non-conlanging
> public. They are aware that some foreign words are being spoken, but the
> language itself isn't important. Watch Tora! Tora! Tora! and you get
> subtitled Japanese. It's six of one, half dozen of the other for most
> people in the theaters whether the funny talk is a real or a fictional
> language.
>
>> What gives Teonaht, Okuna, Miapimoquitch, Kēlen
>> et al. their wide appeal? The languages themselves (and
>> their creators' involvement in the various conlang
>> communities over the years). In fact, take any single one of
>> those latter four languages and poll the conlang list with
>> the following question: Is X more famous for its culture or
>> its linguistic structure? Do you honestly believe that the
>> result would be anything other than a landslide in favor of
>> "its linguistic structure"?
>
> Well, my vote is strongly for Teonaht in its cultural context. It is an
> incredible language, even if it were possible to divorce it from its
> native soil. The culture is equally marvellous, and is certainly crowned
> by the beauty of the language. I am very much a fan of Teonaht's inner
> workings, and it is one of exactly two conlangs I've tried to learn. Well,
> three if you count a brief fling with Esperanto when I was young! But
> language qua language simply does not satisfy. A beautiful language like
> Teonaht would cry out for speakers and a place to happen in and people
> to love it and lofty ideals to extol in it (and perhaps some not so lofty
> ideals). So, says I that Teonaht is famous within its cultural context
> every bit as much as if not more than its mere linguistic merits.
>
> Padraic
>
>> David Peterson
>

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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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