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CONLANG  August 2011, Week 1

CONLANG August 2011, Week 1

Subject:

Re: revisiting the artlang/engelang distinction (was: Re: van Steenbergen Hexagon

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:03:16 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (122 lines)

[enforced topposting again]

Re modelling: I meant "modelling" not as, say, "computer modelling of
meteorological systems", i.e. the sense you describe below, but rather as
in, say, "model railways/villages/ships" - copies of (bits of) (typically
imaginary) worlds - often miniature copies when the copies are physical, but
abstract copies like maps and conlangs aren't miniature.

With regard to what you wrote about admiration of systems, let me narrow
that down a bit. First of all I'd been talking about aesthetic pleasure (or
strong aesthetic attraction) in particular rather than admiration in general
(since Enge is also characterized by admiration of systems). Second, let's
narrow to grammatical systems, because I don't want to claim that it is not
common to derive aesthetic pleasure from games' systems. So, with regard to
aesthetic appreciation of grammatical patterns/systems, I'd claim, firstly
and tentatively, that it is not typical of conlangers, secondly and more
confidently, that it's not prone to intersubjective agreement, and thirdly
and in a restatement of one of the main points I was making earlier, it is
not a characteristic of typical artlanging. (Remember that through prior
discussion we've excluded aesthetic response to phonic & graphic, to
naturalism & verisimilitude, and to efficacious solutions to engineering
problems.)
Also remember that when I say something is not typical of conlangers I mean
not that there aren't conlangers with this property but rather that it
carries little weight in the articulation of an accurate prototype
definition of artlanging.

(this sent by phone from a very noisy beach pizzeria, so not as well written
as it ought to be - be forgiving if anything is unclear)

On 1 Aug 2011 01:29, "David Peterson" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Replying out of order...


On Jul 31, 2011, at 5◊54 AM, And Rosta wrote:
>
> (I do realize I am often unclear, I ought to add...
> attempts at clarity…)


It takes two to misunderstand. I know someone else has remarked on the irony
that we on Conlang discuss language in its intricacies on a daily basis, yet
we often can't understand precisely what others are saying in a language we
know. Consider this a +1 to that. So much is lost when one can't see
gestures or hear intonation...


> Any individual can admire or find aesthetic delight in anything (i.e. For
> every thing it is pos...
It could be all of the latter and still not be very interesting, though. I
suppose the difference there will come from the abilities and imagination of
the conlanger. But I would still contend that their admirers of systems
(which is what I think this comes down to). Or, rather, I know there are—I'm
one of them—but I contend that the presence of such admirers is far from
uncommon—and is quite common amongst conlangers.

Let me make sure we're on the same page. You seem to be suggesting that
admiring a conjugation pattern is uncommon (i.e. anyone can admire anything,
but liking a verb's conjugation system is a "mutation", as it were). A
verb's conjugation system is nothing more than a system, though (i.e. with
x, do y; or y in the case of x). It seems to me that suggesting that
admiration for something like a conjugation pattern has no substance, or is
just a random quirk of particular individuals, is suggesting that humans
can't appreciate systems aesthetically at all. (After all, if they could, it
wouldn't be strange to find not only the odd individual who likes a
particular conjugation system, but scores—and whose opinions can be grouped
[and so aren't random].) I find that quite hard to believe. Systems can
happen naturally and can be created—and can be appreciated.

Consider knock-offs of games. Awhile back, Nintendo came up with a game
called Dr. Mario (which was a little like Tetris, but the goal is to form
rows, horizontal or vertical, of like-colored pills to destroy viruses of
the same color. A virus counted as a block [so you'd need three like-colored
pill segments to destroy one virus, and two to destroy two viruses next to
one another]). It was quite popular, and so there were knock-off games
created to sponge off its success. One of them was an Apple game called Dr.
Macinto. It was identical in play (pills used to destroy viruses in the same
manner), but the name of the doctor was different; the way the viruses
looked were different; the music was different, etc.

The reason knock-offs like this can be successful is they copy the
system—the gameplay. It's the system that's exciting, not the external bits
(the music, the look of the viruses, etc.). In fact, the only reason the
game was called "Dr. Macinto" and used viruses, pills, etc. was to get
people to buy it by indicating it was similar to the much more popular Dr.
Mario (and, after all, Dr. Mario was only for the Nintendo gaming console;
this one worked on a computer, in case you didn't have a Nintendo). It could
have looked nothing like the original game (say torpedoes instead of pills;
ships instead of viruses, etc.), but as long as the system was the same, one
could play it profitably and derive the same enjoyment, all relevant things
being equal (e.g. processor speed, controls, etc.).

This is just one example. One could come up with similar examples of any
other type of system, as well (like user interfaces). I'd say a large part
of the appeal of Rube Goldberg's inventions is the nature of the systems.


> I had previously made the point that the typical artlang is motivated by
the
> impulse to model.
...
I'm not sure I agree, but it could be because of my understanding of what
modeling is. The way I see it, you model something just to make sure it
works. You concern yourself with nothing superfluous, and just keep
tinkering until it works. Once it works, the model is discarded, and no
longer of interest.

I do use models in conlanging, on occasion. That is, I'll take a schema of a
noun case system (it'll be like noun-NOM noun-ACC noun-DAT, etc.) and then
put it into fake sentences to test out how they would work. Once I make sure
it works, then I port it into a real conlang, add to it, make it fit the
language, etc. The schema itself, though, is just to make sure it works
syntactically, and is of no interest once it does work (aside from how it
can be implemented in actual conlangs).


David Peterson
LCS President
[log in to unmask]
www.conlang.org

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December 1998, Week 5
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