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CONLANG  August 2011, Week 1

CONLANG August 2011, Week 1

Subject:

Mandarin 了 (-le) (was: Perfectivity of ve rbs of being)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sat, 6 Aug 2011 07:43:20 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (145 lines)

On 05/08/2011 20:40, Peter Cyrus wrote:
> Doesn't Chinese have a perfect in -guo?  In the sense of
> past action at an unspecified time with present
> relevance, like English "I have been to China"?

Yes it does. But that AFAIK has a more restrictive and
defined usage than -le. The problem with -le is that many
authorities, including a book I have published by Peking
University [sic], refer to -le as a perfective particle, yet
many example given show other usage besides perfective
aspect
==========================================================

On 05/08/2011 22:17, Alex Fink wrote:
 > On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 14:03:01 -0500, Wm
 > Annis<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
 >
 >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:11 PM, R A
 >> Brown<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
 >>> Not sure what you mean by 'different words.' In the
 >>> texts I have they are all written [U+4E86]
 >>
 >> "To, two, too."
 >
 > Though that's perhaps not the bèst example, given that
 > "too" is the same word as "to" by these standards.  (
 > http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=to , etc.)

It ain't the best example, is it?

"to, two, too" are all _written differently_ - -le is
written the _same way_, i.e. 了

IME once something gets written the same it is felt to be
the 'same word'; we can see this at the morpheme level in
English. "Outrage" is derived from Old French 'ultrage' <--
Vulgar Latin *ultraticu. From its etymology we'd expect it
to be pronounced ['awtrIdZ], but it ain't. _Because of the
written form_ it felt to be composed of two morphemes, out +
rage, and is now so pronounced.

"to, two, too" are generally regarded as three different
words pronounced the same way because they are written
differently.  Also, of course, "two" has quite a different
meaning from the other two.

But from an _etymological_ point of view (i.e 
diachronically), "to" and "too" are variant spellings of the
same word!

But we speak synchronically, i.e. most people speaking
English are not one whit concerned with the diachronic
development of the words they are using      :)

 > In any case, my non-Sinologist's money would be against
 > perfect _le_ and change-of-state _le_ having different
 > etymologies, in whatever other sense they may or mayn't
 > be the same word.

Quite so. Though the modern 了 (-le) may well have arisen
from originally different words/morphemes at some time in
the past, that they all fell together as -le and are all
written with the _same_ character.  This seems to me to
suggest that they are all 'felt' to be the same morpheme.

But even diachronically, as Alex observes above, there will
probably be disagreements over exactly which functions of
modern -le are derived from which ancient ancestors.

 > Sense and usage splits than that in
 > these sorts of particles are commonplace -- to take your
 > example, English has the dative-allative preposition and
 > the sign of the infinitive and a word 'also' and a word
 > 'excessively' and some other things beside from one
 > source.

Yep, both "to" and "too" were the 'same word' in Old 
English, namely _tō_. But I don't think ordinary, everyday
English speakers thinks of "to" and "too" as variant
spellings of the same word! As I observed above we speak and
generally write _synchronically_.

 > And the use of the same character isn't wholly
 > worthless as evidence.

Indeed not, especially in a writing system that is
essentially (though not entirely) one where each morpheme is
expressed by a different character. To my simple mind, it
suggests that contemporary Chinese 'feel'  了 (-le) to be a
single morpheme, not a variety of different morphemes that
happen to be pronounced the same way.
==========================================================

On 05/08/2011 23:35, Adam Walker wrote:
 > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Alex
 > Fink<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
 >
 >> On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 14:03:01 -0500, Wm
 >> Annis<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
[snip]
 >> And the use of the same character isn't wholly
 >> worthless as evidence.
 >>
 >> Alex
 >>
 >
 > No, but it must be carefully weighed.  Use of the same
 > character doesn't always mean common origin, just as use
 > of a different character doesn't always mean same origin.

Yes, I have no doubt that both points are very true. The
words _out_ and _rage_ do not mean that _outrage_ originated
as a compound of _out + rage_ and the use of the different
spellings "to" and "too" do not mean the two words are of
different origin. This is all very interesting, especially
those who, like me, are actually interested in the
diachronic development of language.  But, as I say, the
majority of users of any language are using it
_synchronically_

 > Most of the time, yes, but always, no.  Chinese is rife
 > with pitfalls of all sorts, and Chinese etymology in
 > particular is often quite iffy.

I can well expect this so.  Even in the case of English
where Old English, Norman french etc were written
alphabetically we still have the odd bit of iffiness; in
Chinese there must surely be far greater problems.

But to return to the point I originally started with.
The morpheme  了 (-le) is (and this does not seem to be
disputed by William or Adam) not used solely as a marker
of perfective aspect, but has other functions (some, of
which, ma very well have originated from different
morphemes in the past).

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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