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CONLANG  August 2011, Week 3

CONLANG August 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Natlanginess of Esperanto

From:

Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:01:27 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (84 lines)

Hello there! Yes, I'm back, and since I've been called at least twice
directly on this thread, I felt it was only correct to announce my return by
replying to it :) .

On 4 August 2011 22:31, Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Michael Wettstein
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Lurker here. French has several abstractive/categorizing nominalizers
> (-eco in Esperanto, -(ish)ness in English), including -eur, -esse, -(i)té
> and -(i)tude, with varying degrees of preference as to the type of root they
> nominalize.
>
> Thanks.  I've encountered all those, but my use of French is almost
> entirely passive (and mainly involves reading old books), so wasn't
> sure which of them are still productive.
>
>
IME only -(i)té and (i)tude are truly productive. -eur and -esse don't feel
as such to me.


> > In my experience, -itude is the most-often used of the lot to coin such a
> noun when no such nominal form of the root exists in French; for instance, I
> have seen "louvitude" (in quotes) coined as a French equivalent to English
> "wolfishness".  Applied to "parole", the only two that sound halfway
> "natural" - even if they don't exist in the dictionary (at least, not in the
> "petit Robert") - are "parolité" or "parolitude", with "parolitude" sounding
> best to me (a native English speaker, but a long-time and native-level
> speaker of French).
>
> Either sounds good to me, with possible anglicizations "parolity"
> (dubious) and "parolitude" (pretty good).  Christophe, what do you
> think (assuming you're reading this thread)?
>
>
Of course I've read this thread :) . I must say that I agree with Michael
(welcome, BTW!) here: "parolitude" somehow *feels* better than "parolité". I
also feel -itude is more productive than -ité when creating neologisms.

That said, in many neologisms -itude is used to indicate an attitude of
claiming to have a quality rather than the intrisic quality itself, while
-ité indicates the quality itself. So both words could have their use, with
"parolité" indicating the actual quality and "parolitude" the attitude of a
conlanging community claiming to have "parolité". It's difficult here since
neither word exists right now.


> What about corresponding adjective forms?  Say, for instance, you
> wanted to say "Esperanto is more ___ than most other conlangs" rather
> than "Esperanto has more parolitude than most other conlangs"?  Would
> parolâtre make sense there?  parolâtre doesn't have an obvious
> anglicization (maybe "parolish"?) but then, neither does "parole" in
> the Saussurian sense.
>
>
My problem with "parolâtre" is that the -âtre suffix often has a negative
(or at least dismissive) connotation that the English -ish lacks.
"Rougeâtre", for instance, is not simply "reddish" but "somewhat dirty red".
It's only a hint with colour terms but much clearer with other words. For
instance, "douçâtre" doesn't just mean "somewhat soft, somewhat sweet", but
is closer in meaning to "insipid". To say nothing of nouns like "marâtre",
which used to mean "stepmother", but now can only mean "bad mother"!

All in all, the -âtre suffix has a definite pejorative connotation in
French, so I don't feel a word like "parolâtre" has quite the intended
meaning. It would only if "parolitude/parolité" was somehow a defect.

The main problem with finding the right adjectival form is that words in
-ité and -itude are normally derived from *adjectives*, not from nouns. So
the adjectival form is normally just the form without the suffix. So there
is just no French suffix that fits the bill here (quality nouns in French
are normally derived from adjectives, and not vice versa). If I had my back
against the wall, my choice would simply be to use "parole" directly as an
adjective, maybe with scare quotes around it. It's an acceptable way to
handle things in French, especially in informal speech.

For English, I don't know. Would "paroley" feel so wrong?
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/

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