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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 2

CONLANG September 2011, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Case System: Gweiric

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:25:40 +0200

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (154 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Thursday 08 September 2011 06:59:42, Anthony Miles wrote:

> The current Gweiric case system has expanded yet again: Lative (IMO, the
> name Allative is a better contrast to Ablative) has split from Locative to
> form a trial system more in accord with
> adverbal/prepositional/derivational prefix system of Gweiric; Comitative
> has split from Instrumental; Benefactive has split from Dative.
> 
> Does this case system look realistic? Are there semantic roles that I still
> need to assign or shift, or cases I need to rename? (q = velar nasal)
> 
> 
> Ergative (-kyen/-gyen/-qyen; -tyo:r/-dyo:r/-nye:r)
> The ergative case is used as the subject of a transitive verb. The semantic
> roles are animate Agent and inanimate Force
> AGENCY
> Tyadadr(kyen) takrkwen ko:kwuweimon. The boy hurt the companion.
> FORCE
> Gwein(tyo:r) tyadadrkwen gweyeimon. The ice made the boy cold.
> 
> 
> Accusative (-kwen, -gwen, -qwen; -two:r, -dwo:r, -nwe:r)
> The accusative case is used as the direct object of a transitive verb or an
> impersonal verb. The semantic roles is Patient.
> PATIENT
> Tyadadrkyen takr(kwen) ko:kwuweimon. The boy hurt the companion.
> PATIENT
> Tyadadr(kwen) gweyeimon. The boy became cold.
> 
> 
> Intransitive (-0, -0)
> The Intransitive case is used as the subject of an intransitive verb in the
> semantic role of Experiencer.
> EXPERIENCER
> Na(0) gweyeiman. I am cold.
> Gwein(0) gweyeiman. The ice is cold.

Ahem, nothing wrong with that, except for your use of the terms
"Agent", "Patient" and "Experiencer".  These are semantic roles,
which do not coincide with the notions of "transitive subject",
"transitive object" and "intransitive subject".  An intransitive
subject can be an agent ("The boy sings"), a patient ("The old
man dies") or an experience ("The girl is sad").  A transitive
subject is not always an agent; it can be, for instance, an
experiencer ("The boy sees the girl").

This misuse goes back, AFAIK, to Justin B. Rye, who used these
terms without understanding them, and has spread like bushfire
in the conlang community.

> Genitive (-kyas/-gyas/-qyas; -pyos/-byos/-myes)
> The Genitive case is used to describe possession and as a subjective
> genitive. (The Genitive is sometimes written as -kyes rather than -kyas,
> especially when used as a subjective genitive).
> POSSESSION
> Nakyen meretntwo:r takr(kyas) tyayenos. I saw the stone of the companion.
> SUBJECTIVE GENITIVE
> Hu:liyikeimokyen ko:kwun(pyos) namwen ko:kwuweimon. The coming of the
> sun harmed us.
> Dwagyideimonye:r gweir(kyes) naqwen ko:kwuweimon. The acts of the Ice-
> person  harmed us.

Sure.  The genitive in my conlang Old Albic pretty much works
the same way.
 
> Partitive (-kwas/-gwas/-qwas; -pwos/-bwos/-mwes)
> The Partitive case is used to describe a portion. It is also used to
> describe origin.
> PARTITIVE
> Nakyen meretnne:r tale:dr(kwas) woyideimos. I took some stones of the girl.
> ORIGINATIVE
> Ko:kwuntyo:r gweirqyen gwowon(pwos) ko:kwuweimon. The sun hurt the Ice-
> people from the cavern.

This also makes sense.
 
> Ablative (-kas/-gas/-qas; -pos/-bos/-mes)
> The Ablative case is used from motion from a source, as a causative, or as
> a prolative.
> ABLATIVE
> Tale:dr gwown(kas) gheumiyikeimonr. The girls left the cave.
> CAUSATIVE
> Gweir ko:kwun(pos) bwu:tu:keimonr. The Ice-people died because of the sun.
> PROLATIVE
> Pe:lenrgyen ro:trkwen kyimo:dn(kas) heleseimonl. The two bards praised the
> king alongside the road.

Fair.
 
> Instrumental (-kya/-gya/-qya; -pyo/-byo/-mye)
> The Instrumental case is used for the means by which something is done. The
> semantic roles are animate Agent and inanimate Force
> AGENT
> Tyadadr(kya) takrkwen ko:kwuweimon. The companion was hurt by the boy.
> FORCE
> Gwein(pyo) tyadadrkwen gweyeimon. The boy was made cold by the ice.

So you have a passive voice; why not?
 
> Locative (-ka/-ga/-qa; -po/-bo/-me)
> The Locative case is used for location. The semantic role is Location.
> LOCATION
> Tyadadr gwown(po) gweyeimon. The boy in the cave is cold.
> Tyadadr wown(po) kyelgweyeimon. The boy on the hill is not cold.
> 
> 
> Dative (-kwa/-gwa/-qwa; -pwo/-bwo/-mwe)
> The Dative case is used for the indirect object of the verb. The semantic
> role is Recipient.
> RECIPIENT
> Tyadadrkyen tale:dr(kwa) meretntwo:r dyamameimon. The boy gave the
> stone to the girl.
> 
> 
> Lative (-kan/-gan/-qan; -pon/-bon/-men)
> The Lative case is used for motion toward, purpose, and goal.
> MOTION TOWARD
> Ro:tr yaye:ln(pon) yaiyikeiman. The king goes towards the valley.
> GOAL
> Tyadadr we:lowon(pon) hiyikeimonr. The boys went towards the town.
> PURPOSE
> Tyadadrqyen ro:tr(kan) ko:kwuweimonr. The boys harmed the king
> (deliberately).
> (compare with ro:trkwen, which has no such implication)
> 
> 
> Comitative (-kyan/-gyan/-qyan; -pyon/-byon/-myen)
> The Comitative case is used to describe accompaniment. The semantic role is
> Accompaniment.
> ACCOMPANIMENT
> Tale:dr tyadadr(kyan) wownmen hiyikeimon. The girl with the boy walks to
> the hill.
> 
> 
> Benefactive (-kwan/-gwan/-qwan; -pwon/-bwon/-mwen)
> The Benefactive case is used to describe the one who benefits from an
> action. This is often a replacement for the Dative (Recipient) or Lative
> (Goal). RECIEPIENT
> Ro:trqyen tale:dr(gwan) meretntwo:r dyamameimonr. The kings gave the
> stone to the girls (as a present).
> GOAL
> Na wown(mwen) hiyikeimunl. We two will start walking toward the hills (and
> it will be a good thing).

I see no fault with any part of your case system.  It is nice
and realistic.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"BÍsel asa  m, a  m atha cvanthal a cvanth atha  mel." - SiM 1:1

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August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
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June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
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July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 1
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August 2003, Week 3
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August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 4
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
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November 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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