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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 2

CONLANG September 2011, Week 2

Subject:

Re: To know or not to know

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 10 Sep 2011 06:16:35 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (130 lines)

Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> It's been a while since I started a thread, or even talked about 
> conlangs at all :/, so let's change that.
> 
> I've been thinking lately about the concept of
> knowledge and how various
> languages handle it. English, for instance, has the
> basic verb "to know",
> which can be used in nearly every case when someone
> wants to indicate that
> they have some kind of knowledge, whether they know a
> situation, a person, a
> skill, etc. In my native language French, however (and
> I believe most if not
> all Romance languages have the same distinctions),
> there isn't a single
> basic verb equivalent to "to know". French has *two*
> verbs that split the
> semantic space covered by "to know": _savoir_ and
> _connaître_. _Savoir_ is
> used to indicate knowledge of a fact (_je sais où il
> est_: "I know where he
> is") or knowledge of an ability (_je sais nager_: "I
> know how to swim").
> _Connaître_ is used to indicate acquaintance with a
> person (_je connais
> Pierre_: "I know Peter". And yes, this one also has
> the Biblical meaning :P
> ) or familiarity with a person or thing (_Je connais
> Paris_: "I know
> Paris"). They cannot be swapped, except when talking
> about knowing something
> by heart, in which case both are allowed (but
> _connaître_ is far more
> common). The distinction extends to nouns as well:
> _savoir_ means
> "knowledge" in general, or knowledge of a skill, while
> _connaissance_ can
> mean "knowledge" (but usually refers to academic or
> book knowledge), but can
> also mean "acquaintance" or "familiarity".
> 
> So I've been wondering how different languages handle
> indications of
> knowledge, and I especially wonder how you handle them
> in your conlangs.

Kerno, being a Romance conlang, should offer no surprises in having
saver versus goueither roughly along the same lines as French. In fact,
your description of knowing something "by heart" as opposed to knowing
something "with the brain" is a good way of describing these words'
functions.

Saver is to know something factually or intellectually. Saus me il yan et
yan feas daw = I know one and one are two.

Goueither is to know something by wisdom or experience or acquaintence or
experience. Like connaitre, it is used of persons or experiences. Peder,
dom-ays il goueither = Peter, there is at me the knowing. 

Loucarian is quite different. It differentiates "inner / divine" versus
"external / worldly" knowledge, but apparently only in nouns. al tabab is
worldly knowledge while al nossion is inner knowledge. There are three
verbs that mean to know: clevere, sabire and scire (which I don't even have
a proper reference for). Sabire does duty for both connaitre and savoir,
like English. Clevere I have as meaning "understand" once, but the usual
Loucarian is haptere en cardiem, to have grasped in the heart. It could be 
that haptere means "know or understand al nossion" while scire means "know
or understand al tabab". The way I had used clevere vs. scire might 
indicate a distinction between "come to know or understand" (clevere) as
opposed to "know in general terms, recognise, know factually (sabire / 
scire)".

Sometimes (or rather, often) in Loucarian when there are two words one of
which is ancient, it usually carries the most basic meaning while the
younger word carries an extended meaning. Clevere is certainly more ancient
than sabire or scire (or haptere), but it doesn't seem to have cornered
the market on basic meaning.

IC jecceto moulvaniccere al sabouwem, ett’ ica anawatto ziccuccent al 
mathêtes. IC pejeito adis ican: mire ziccuccere itan, qouem, mi pejeito 
itan. men gar tim haptere itan en al iccàm cardiem na. Movero, baccare ‘ti 
uttare.

Jesus finished making a teaching, and he saw the disciple writing. Jesus 
said to him: do not write it, that, I said it. For indeed you understand 
it in your heart. Now, go and do!

POIC Avir trais dieyes en al icaica anouram an: acco: histenumver etti vas 
nan poudire moutasiare ican; eiomver etti vas nan sabire ai vas eiothayare 
enis ican swe nan eiothayare enis ican; mendê hotimver etti vas melere 
moulvaniccere al agathom en ica na. 

Said Jesus: There are three days in this world: look, a yesterday and you 
can not alter it; a tomorrow and you don’t know if you will enter into it 
or if you will not enter into it; but indeed a today and you should lief 
do good within it.

Talarian is different still. In that language, one verb, weytam, suffices
for both "see" and "know", depending on whether the verb is durative or
stative. The durative form is "see", while the stative form is "know":
akâ com weytâ; wâytâ-he com akâ = I see him and I know him. Seeing is
clearly an active concept while knowing is a state one has arrived at as a
result of action. And indeed, if the knowledge of the person is garnered
*as a result of* looking at him, then we could use the resultive stative:
akâ com weytâ; wewâytâ-he com akâ = I see him, and as a result of examining
him, I know him. A bit odd to say that. Usually, a resultive stative is
found only in more concrete senses: mortâ = I am dead vs. memortâ = here I
lie dead, having been murdered.

You can tell the difference here cos verbs undergo an ablaut shift in the
stative. akâ is 1s pronoun, while com is one of several deictically 
diverse demonstratives, meaning "this here".

There is an extended verb, weytinam, which means to perceive or know
thoroughly (same durative/stative distinctions); there is also a punctual
form meaning "witness" or "observe".

I guess Talarians believe that one simply "knows" both inner and outer
kinds of wisdom alike and without distinction.

I haven't addressed knowing in any other conlangs, except that the Germanic
languages spoken in Autnimoany and old Hoopelle have the usual wissen,
cannen, cnawan spread. 

Padraic

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December 2004, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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