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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: NATLANG: The edge of human language syntax complexity

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:55:06 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (89 lines)

Mechthild Czapp, On 24/09/2011 18:23:
> There is another way to test how usable Fith or the like is... to
> learn it or probably a relaxed version of it as iirc the
> documentation got eaten by a bug and attempt to converse in it. Given
> that I wanted to learn such a language, I would offer to be a
> conversation partner :)

One would need to specify what counts as "or the like". It's pretty plausible that all natlangs are parsed by stack, as Fith is, so what is it that makes Fith distinctively Fith? There are the ordering conjunctions, but those are unanimously held to be unusable by humans...

Jörg Rhiemeier, On 24/09/2011 19:18:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Saturday 24 September 2011 19:19:35, And Rosta wrote:
>
>> R A Brown, On 24/09/2011 08:33:
>>> On 24/09/2011 04:57, Alex Fink wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:17:19 +0100, And
>>>>
>>>> Rosta wrote:
>>>>> Fithians could speak human languages far better than
>>>>> humans (i.e. produce and comprehend grammatical
>>>>> sentences of far greater complexity than humans can
>>>>> cope with in real time).
>>>>
>>>> That also seems not to strike at the main point, which I
>>>> take to be human comprehensibility of full-blown Fith.
>>>
>>> AMEN!
>>>
>>> And's statement above is, of course, scientifically
>>> untestable as Fithians are a fictitious race.
>>
>> However, it is trivially simple, with a mere second or two's reflection, to
>> translate my statement into something substantively equivalent that is
>> scientifically testable: A machine with the processing abilities
>> attributed to Fithians could speak human languages far better than humans
>> (i.e. produce and comprehend grammatical sentences of far greater
>> complexity than humans can cope with in real time.
>
> Sure can such a machine be built (or rather programmed, as this
> seems to be a matter of software). But is that meaningful from
> a *linguistic* standpoint? Linguistics deals with languages
> that are *actually spoken by human beings*, not with abstractions
> from such languages that could be processed by computers but not
> by human beings. Formal grammars are only *abstractions*, used
> to treat particular aspects of human language, not the languages
> themselves.
>
> A test with a computer programmed to emulate the Fithian language
> capabilities as described by Jeffrey may be meaningful with Fith,
> but not with a human language.

I had understood Ray to be saying that my claim about how well Fithians could speak English was untestable. Really, as I think was probably obvious, I was making a claim about how well any processor without memory limitations could speak English, and in that case the computer test is relevant (tho not necessary, because surely nobody doubts my claim).
  
>>>> I dropped the ball on the last conversation on Fith, and
>>>> so this will be a retread, for which I apologise.
>>>
>>> No apology needed. The points you make are IMO very
>>> relevant. It was not Jeffrey Henning's intention that Fith
>>> be human-usable and AFAIK it is _generally_ accepted that
>>> full blown Fith is not. I really need to see firm evidence
>>> to the contrary and, so far, I have not seen it.
>>
>> It can also be demonstrated that full-blown English is not human-usable
>> either. The lack of human-usability of full-blown Fith does not in itself
>> prove that Fith is "a language with some kind of
>> mathematically/grammatically implausible syntax structure".
>
> As I have said, that is meaningless. A Chomskyan specification
> of the grammar of English may allow for "grammatically correct"
> utterances no human beings could ever cope with, but that only
> means that such a formal specification is only an imperfect
> model of the actual language as it is spoken by its community.

I can understand how one can intelligently take this parole-centric view, but not how one can intelligently both take this parole-centric view and draw a distinction between a language and the mental powers of its speakers. So I expect you won't draw a distinction betweeb a language and the mental powers of its speakers, but then how can you sensibly contribute to debates that ask what syntactic features are within and without the mental powers of humans? To the question "Is Fith human-usable?", you would give one of two equally uninformative answers, either (1) "No of course not, because Fithians have greater mental powers (no matter what the grammar of Fith is like)" or (2) "Yes, of course, for whatever humans can speak of Fith will be Human Fith".

> Of course, with a conlang, we start with a specification of
> the language (not necessarily a *formal* specification, though
> - most of us describe their conlangs in plain wordage, not in
> Backus-Naur forms or anything like that) that exists before
> the language is spoken, if ever, by anyone. With a natlang,
> any formal specification that could be used to program a
> computer to parse the language, is a *secondary abstraction*
> from the observed linguistic behaviour of the speakers.

I don't really have time to debate this, interesting tho the debate can be, but I think your heavily empirical approach clouds our understanding of language. The structuralist approach allows us to filter out (of the set of what is ungrammatical) sentences that people never say because they happen never to want or need to, by chance or because of their improbable meaning ("Colourless green ideas") or because they are too hard to process; and after this filtration we are left with pure grammar. We can then explain parole on the basis of processing, of pragmatics, and of grammar.

--And.

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