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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Prefix Notation for Lists of Items

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:52:18 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (149 lines)

On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I've wanted to get in on one of these Palno threads for awhile, as the
> principles of the language I had been constructing with Robert BL were
> similar.  At least there was perfect consistent headedness and every word
> had a fixed arity.  So I've thought a little about some of these things;
> perhaps not as incisively, since some features of that language's design
> weren't conducive to seeing through this clearly.  E.g. it was isolating,
> and for little good reason there was a word class that returned [shd I say
> "projected to the next level"?] one of its arguments and one that returned
> an abstraction of the predication instead.
>
> ... hold on, that's _exactly_ what you're talking about here, is it not?

Indeed, it is.

> Robert BL and I came to similar conclusions about adjunction.  However, I
> never thought of it in the framing of enlarging a minimal set of syntactic
> operations; we indubitably subsumed it under the same structure we used for
> predication.  The measure we adopted for adjunction was a two-argument word
> (intended to be light and frequent; its form was _e_) which returned the
> adjunction of its arguments.  More precisely, it was actually the boolean
> and of predicates, which did what one wanted for adjunction in many
> circumstances.  This seems to be roughly like what And is doing for English.
>
> In any case, we didn't find its presence there to be ... bothersome, as if
> we were realising something which was not there in the "underlying cognitive
> form" (or whatever) to be realised.

I had considered a similar mechanism for Gogido, but hadn't thought of
describing it in quite that way. My interpretation of it is that such
a word would constitute a distinct closed lexical class (as it has a
behavior different from all other predicates) which realizes an
expansion of the operations available to concrete syntax in order to
avoid increasing the number of operations in abstract syntax.

>>Besides the Palno morphology hack, which I'm still not completely fond
>>of because it leads to things being marked in odd places,
>
> Could you give some examples (?again)?

That is something I can easily provide examples of. Consider "I saw
the cat who walks through walls." Transformed in the most
straightforward way to Palno grammar, it comes out as "I-NOM
cat-NOM-PROJ walks-NOM-PROJ. walls-ACC through-ACC," where PROJ ==
"this element projects, overriding the default head." Here, the
accusative case marking for "cat" ends up realized on the word
"through".

> BTW, why is Palno lexicalised off Russian?

Because Russian is the language I speak best after English, so it's
easy for me to remember the phonology-and-morphology adapted
vocabulary; it's not purely Russian, but mostly. I use the non-English
lexicon because when I see English words used not in accordance with
English grammar, it's really difficult to see or hear anything other
than meaningless garbage. It's easier to get my brain to recognize
that it's supposed to be applying different rules when it's seeing
words not from my native language.

>>Starts to get really confusing [...]
>
> On this particular point I disagree entirely.  For one, it's surely a
> distraction that you've cast the noun phrases into strict RPN but not the
> conjunction of the clauses, so that more "and"s appear adjacent.

Eh? (((I ((eggs butter and) (cheese milk and) and) bought) ([I-trace]
(bacon beef and) sold) and) (you ((bacon my) beef and) bought) and)
The conjunction of the clauses and the conjunction of noun phrases are
both strictly postfix in this version/level of Palno.

  But on the
> primary point, I think "A B and C and D and E and F and" for 'A & B &amp; C & D
> & E & F' is not confusing, and stays not confusing as the length of the list
> increases.  The stack depth is never more than one more than its final
> value; the whole construction can be tail-recursed.  The ands shouldn't
> (i.e. I predict wouldn't, by a hypothetical fluent user) be read with any
> more weight than should the commas in "eggs, butter, cheese, milk".

Well, I feel silly. Especially since I myself have previously made the
point about employing tail-recursion. I blame sinus pressure for
reducing my clear-thinking capacity.
I was trying to employ logical grouping of sublists; treat the ands
like conses and it works out OK, but try to join multiple lists and
you get build-ups. Looking at it now, though, I suppose that's a
stylistic thing that could be chalked up to not being intentionally
obtuse, and multiply conjunctive lists are not the best example of
what I'm trying to get at. The three-predicate structure at the end of
my example is demonstrative, though: "and) bought) and)"
That sequence cannot be so easily rectified, and the final "and" has
one of its arguments separated from it by a whole intervening clause
of non-trivial structure. The abstract tree structure may end up the
same as with infix operators, but the memory load while waiting for
stuff that combined be combined is larger as the wait is longer.

> I'd agree with you here:
>
>>Except that this problem only arose because we
>>only defined a single operation for the entire language- all other
>>predicates behave exactly the same way. So as you start trying to
>>connect more and more constituents together in more complex sentences,
>>you pretty quickly run into situations where you must have long
>>strings of predicates, sometimes quite distant from their actual
>>arguments, whose interpretation is very difficult to keep track of.
>>Similar situations can be contrived in English, but they are not
>>required.
>>
>>The only way to eliminate the problem is to increase the complexity of
>>the grammar.
>
> but I wouldn't pin the blame on the mere fact of (R)PN construction, 'cause
> this is close to homomorphic in the relevant ways to natlangs which have
> strongly consistent branching, and such natlangs survive in the wild quite
> well.

Indeed. As I state earlier, the trouble isn't so much pre- or
post-fix-ness as it is some of the other features that go along with a
language described as RPN. If someone chooses to describe their
language as PN/RPN, as opposed to "strict right/left branching", there
are other things in mind than just branching style that motivate the
use of unusual terminology.

In the case of Palno, I do find some problems directly associated with
the strict branching, especially when it comes to clause-level
conjunctions. But just as problematic, if not more so, are the effects
of only having a single lexical class and a single kind of operation
available, at least in the basic, original formulation.

My own complaints about my creation have never been centered around
the unsuitability of an RPN grammar; my concerns are with the more
general concept of an overly simple grammar. Some problems are (R)PN
specific, but I imagine other simple grammars would have their own
problems.

> The sort of deviations from "pureness" which dņ seem to help are various
> moves and extrapositions that e.g. remove a heavy argument from between two
> related constituents  the connection between which would otherwise be broken
> in processing.  So those are the ones I reckon most important.
> (I could call this traversing my underlying graph in the right order.)

Indeed; and those are just the sorts of helps that one gets from
modifications like allowing infix conjunctions (which do seem to me to
form yet another logical class defined by a third kind of basic
syntactic operation) and using case marking to re-arrange constituent
order.

-l.

I seem to really like the word 'indeed' today. Just in one of those phases....

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October 2002, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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