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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: OT Platonism (was: Enough of this)

From:

Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:20:22 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (110 lines)

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 1:48 PM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 26/09/2011 17:37, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>
>>
>>> Same to me. How can eternal, unchangeable Forms
>>> account for a universe which is characterized by
>>> variation, evolution and creativity? One would have
>>> to assume an infinity of Forms for everything that
>>> could ever be, most of which are never ever manifested
>>> in the physical world. To me, that is nonsense.
>>>
>>>
>>> That would be nonsense, or at least pretty unlikely, but
>> that's not the sum total of Platonism.
>>
>
> Maybe - but it was clearly a central part of Plato's
> teaching. As to the sum total, that must forever remain
> unknown. Plato made it clear that only exoteric teaching
> could be put into writing; his esoteric teaching was given
> orally to initiates only.
>
> It is, in fact, not possible to produce a coherent picture
> of Plato's philosophy just from his writings; much
> conjecture is needed. The Neo=Platonists of later ages did
> of course "fill in the gaps" - but how true they were to
> Plato himself we shall never know without time travel.
>

Platonism does not end with Plato. It's a complex philosophy with a large
and complex lineage of proponents. To refute a statement about the Forms by
saying that Plato didn't argue that is like objecting to the periodic table
because Empedocles didn't describe it.





>
> In fact, Platonic forms may be more or less roughly
>> equivalent to universal laws, which even you empiricists
>> admit do not change (at least, not since the
>> establishment of the universe).
>>
>
> No - Plato talks, for example, about a table 'partaking' in
> the Form of Table. There does appear to be a hierarchy of
> Forms, but this is not entirely clear.
>

It's not clear in Plato. Later Platonists (or, if you like, Neo-Platonists)
make it quite clear that there is.


>
> Also the Forms are clearly thought of as having an objective
> and perceptible existence. Part of Plato's teaching was that
> between death and reincarnation, the soul contemplated the
> perfect Forms. We forget them during the trauma of entering
> the physical world at conception. Learning is nothing other
> than a process of 'remembering' (anamnesis). I recognize
> something as a table because its shape causes my soul to
> recall the Form of Table which my soul once knew.
>
> Jörg's point, I think, is that by the same token, I
> recognize the thing in front of me as a computer monitor
> because it caused my soul to recall the Form of
> Computer-Monitor, in which mine (and yours) partakes.
> Neither he nor I accept this theory.
>
> The laws of geometry do not change, and we can imagine
>> that an alien with no contact with human culture would
>> very likely develop something quite a bit like the
>> Pythagorean theorem all on its own. Yet the universe is
>> not, on the whole, a plane, and no triangle within the
>> physical universe is a perfect right triangle, so how can
>> it be that two beings separated by lightyears could
>> acquire the same thought? If the Pyth. th. is an
>> approximation based on empirical evidence, then how is it
>> that two people separated in time and space could make
>> the same exactly approximation?
>>
>
> Because, as far we know, the 'Laws of Physics' are the same
> throughout the cosmos. But that is _very different_ from
> Plato's theory of Forms. Indeed, Plato himself gives a very
> different explanation as why a slave 'remembers' Pythagoras'
> theorem ;)
>


> But this is way off topic.
>

I'd love to engage you in dialog about this, but yes, it's off topic. I
suppose it'll have to wait until I make it to a meet up somewhere.

--Patrick


--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
pre-order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>.

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