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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Conjugating Nouns

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 23:42:39 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (124 lines)

On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 3:34 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On 27/09/2011 03:45, Padraic Brown wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 9:42 AM, R A
>> Brown<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>
> [snip]
>>>
>>> I don't understand.
>>
>> We -- English speakers -- expect aspect to be an
>> integral part of conjugation. I don't think it *has* to
>> be part of nominal conjugation in a conlang.
>
> Indeed, I do not think it should be.
>
> To me the problem with John's idea is that he is applying to
> nouns a concept that more properly goes with the verb or, if
> you prefer, with the clause as a whole.

Well, there's another interesting question. Now, I happen to have a
similar expectation of verbs and time. But why must concepts like
time (tense, that is) "more properly" go with a verb than a noun?

Substantives exist and act in time as well as space, so why not
associate both with the noun?

> The natlangs which show time inflexions on nouns do so with
> reference to the noun itself, not to the sentence as a
> whole. That is, house.PAST = "something that was once a
> house" and house.FUTURE = "something that will one day be a
> house"; cf. Tupi:
> abáûera "he who was once a man"
> abárama "he who shall be a man someday"

Interesting indeed. I had been thinking on this today and how it would
apply to the language and people I'm thinking of. I think their perspective
of objects in time is parallel to that of objects in space. If I'm sitting in
a chair in a corner of the room, the various chairs, bookcases and other
objects are arrayed in space relatively near and far from me. But, not
only are they arrayed in space, but also in time. Last week, that chair
was in a different corner; a decade ago, it was in a different office; a
half century ago it was in a different house in another state. It moves
through space as well as time, so why should I only be able to refer to
"that chair over there" and not "that chair back when"?

Same goes for people. I think they might see MORROW-man as not a
boy-child (one who will eventually be a man); but an individual now who will
change and grow and be slightly different in time, in perspective and in
awareness of self and the outside world as he moves through time.

> A few centuries back, Leibniz proposed the same sort of
> thing and I am certain some conlangs have actually
> implemented this.
>
> But in John's proposal man.PAST does not mean "he who was
> once a man", but "he who was there at the time referred to
> in the rest of the clause."

Yes, that's how I understand it. It's a matter of perspective I suppose.

> It seems to me that in that situation mixing the tenses on
> different nouns in the same clause does not make sense.
> Either mark one noun, i.e. the subject, or insist that all
> nouns "agree", i.e. are marked the same way.

That's fair. I haven't worked out yet whether or not I would mark all
nouns, or just for example the topic. If YESTER-man did some action,
would the object of his action need to even be marked? If it were marked,
would it have to agree in time? If it didn't agree in time, what would that
mean?

I agree that most substantives in a sentence or phrase would probably
agree as to their temporal markers. So it's probably superfluous to say
"the YESTER-quick YESTER-brown YESTER-fox jump over the YESTER-lazy
YESTER-dog." I think it would suffice to say: "the quick brown YESTER-fox
jump over the lazy dog".

>>> It always apparent when my daughter, whose lived in
>>> the USA for the past couple of decades, visits us that
>>>  British and US use of the so-called 'past simple' and
>>>  'present perfect' in English do not coincide on the
>>> two sides of the Pond - there is considerable
>>> variation.
>>
>> I'd be interested in some examples.
>>
>
> One sticks in my mind. I had said earlier in the morning
> that I would be walking over to the town to do a spot of
> shopping.  Later that same morning she asked me "Did you go
> to the shops yet?"
>
> I would have said "Have you been to the shops yet?" We Brits
> habitually use the so-called English 'present perfect' form
> for a recent past event, i.e. for recent past perfective.
> It would seem (some/ all?) Americans - arguably more
> logically - use the plain simple past.
>
> Oops - do I see YAEDT?   ;)

Could be. As a Leftpondian, I see nothing at all wrong with "have you
been to the shops yet". Except that I would more naturally say "have
you been shopping yet". We don't generally say "go to the shops".

I can't say which one I use with more frequency. For me, the choice
would I think be more a matter of momentary snapshop action (did
you go) versus process of action (have you gone) and which aspect I
wanted to focus on.

> Ray

Padraic

--

En matinamver na, IC pirperato sarccim pros iscôm mathêtes; ett’ ica
pejeito adis nesser:
acco, qouem mi moulvaniccere pros vassermet, qouem, moulvaniccere vas
itan pros al pouvres.

One morning, Jesus prepared food for his disciples; and he said to them:
look, what I do for you, that, you do it for the poor.

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