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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Conjugating Nouns

From:

Brian <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 26 Sep 2011 02:07:20 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (205 lines)

Would something like this type of construction work? It's not all inclusive, obviously, but hopefully it gets my point across. If there is any confusion I'd be glad to clarify.

Haku-ne igoso pede-ne
The cat-PRESENT eat the mouse-PRESENT
The cat eats the mouse

Haku-su igoso pede-su
The cat-FUTURE eat the mouse-FUTURE
The cat will eat the mouse

Haku-ne igoso-ne pede-ne
The cat-PRESENT eat-PROGRESSIVE the mouse-PRESENT
The cat is eating the mouse

Haku-su igoso-ne pede-su
The cat-FUTURE eat-PROGRESSIVE the mouse-FUTURE
The cat will be eating the mouse

Haku-su igoso pede-ne
The cat-FUTURE eat the mouse-PRESENT
The cat will have eaten the mouse.

Haku-ne igoso pede-ge
The cat-PRESENT eat the mouse-PAST
The cat has eaten the mouse

Haku-ge igoso pede-ge
The cat-PAST eat the mouse-PAST
The cat ate the mouse

Haku-ge igoso-ne pede-ge
The cat-PAST eat-PROGRESSIVE the mouse-PAST
The cat was eating the mouse

Haku-ge igoso pede-ta
The cat-PAST eat the mouse-PAST.REMOTE
The cat had eaten the mouse
-----Original Message-----
From: Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>
Date:         Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:11:58 
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conjugating Nouns

On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 3:14 PM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>> But after hashing out the details wouldn't inflecting
>> nouns for tense be just a case of cognitive
>> understanding of the world and cause no real problem of
>> miscommunication? (This is not a rhetorical question
>> either.)
>
> If all nouns (like the negative example) showed the same
> tense, I agree there would be no cause for miscommunication.
>  It's the mixed tense examples that confuse the issue.

I think confusion primarily arises because the grammar of the conlang has 
not yet been specified. All we are doing is throwing ideas around and 
hashing out our interpretation of data that has not even been defined as 
of yet!

And of course, it's only us confusing outselves! If I were to define a
system for my conlang with si- as an "anterior tense" marker and le- as
a "near past" marker and a- as a "present tense" marker and harcu as a
noun meaning "dog" then, clearly, si-harcu means "FAR-PAST-dog", not 
"PAST.perfect-dog" or "PAST.progressive-dog". I might could specify that
-n- operates as a perfect aspect marker: si-har-n-cu for example, or
sin-harcu (to keep things easy). If you defined a different system, then
there would still be no confusion.

It's like if I listed three words: pfotuur, tslotey and cto; and everyone
started "interpreting" them without me having defined them.

>> shown by the verb, not the noun. Even if aspect is shown
>>  by the noun, it doesn't appear in ány of the examples,
>> including the mixed time one I snipped. Unless "PAST" is
>>  also being used to indicate aspect(s).
>
> Exactly so.  Usually what is called the "past participle" in
> European languages & conlangs is, in fact, a _perfect_
> participle, e.g.
> La kato estas [pres. indicative] manĝita ['past' part.] la
> muson = The cat has eaten the mouse.

That begs the question: why must we assume that aspect is integrated
with the tense marker *in this proposed system*? (I.e., not in E-o.)

I cèrtainly am not saying that time and aspect can not be fused in one
marker, only that we don't appear to be seeing that here. Especially
given what John said recently in reply.

I dó think they can be conflated, as you suggest, but of course, this 
would be a matter taken up when the conlang gets described. 

> It seemed to me that in the "mixed tense" examples the
> "tense" on the subject has a more 'participle-like' function
> in relation to the tense on the object.

Understood, though obviously not agreed!

> [snip]
>>>
>>> It seems to me that in the examples he gave, the
>>> inflexion on the subject gives the aspect and that on
>>> the object gives the tense, i.e. "Me-PAST make
>>> me-PRESENT broke," = me.PERF make me.PRES = I have been
>>> made broke [as a result of past financial decision]
>>
>> I see where you're coming from -- but I could just as
>> easily say "My past self made my present self broke" --
>> no aspect given.
>
> Not so certain. We seem to me to have a present state of
> affairs which has resulted from a past action (i.e. my poor
> financial decision in the past). This is surely what the
> _perfect_ aspect is about, isn't it?

Only because we expect it! We use aspect all over the place. I'm simply 
suggesting that the examples given don't *necessarily* indicate aspect. I 
am assuming that the examples are in a yet to be constructed non-English 
conlang by the way!

As I understand English verbal conjugation, aspect is pretty integral:

I cook = habitual aspect
I am cooking = progressive aspect
I will have cooked = future perfect
I will be cooking = future progressive
I had cooked = past perfect

etc. We don't really separate time and aspect that well. I simply saw in
the nominal tense markers a rather stronger division between time and
aspect than we have in English. Or apparently, E-o.

>>> "Me-FUTURE make me-PRESENT broke," = me.PREDICT make
>>> m.PRES = I am going to be made broke [as a result of
>>> upcoming financial obligations].
>>
>> This one doesn't work, because I-PRESENT am still
>> fiscally solvent.
>
> I know that! That's why I suggested it is a _present
> predictive_.
>
> Often the predictive aspect is shown by the so-called
> "future participle", cf.
> Mi estas [pres. indic.] insolventiĝonta [future part.] =
> I am going to become broke [[as a result of upcoming
> financial obligations].
>
> It does work - tho I admit the sentence may well be capable
> of a different analysis.

Yes. Though, with a specified aspect marker, I for one am more content
with your interpretation than I was when the only markers were for tense.
Though I don't necessarily agree that the me-PREDICT construction
necessarily equates to the me-FUTURE .. me-PRESENT construction.

Me-PRESENT.PREDICT that me-FUTURE might bankrupt me-FAR.FUTURE however!

>> Then there is a problem, isn't there? When aspect is
>> left unmarked, I assume that what is being said is purely a matter of
>> relative tense, not perfective/imperfective/progressive etc aspect.
>
> But the problem is, I think, that 'relative tense' often
> strays into the territory of aspect, as my Esperanto
> examples attempt to show.

Agreed. But this is, supposedly, not Esperanto or even English. Perhaps
"relative tense" doesn't stray so far from home in this other conlang! 

>> Right now we're only guessing.
>
> Indeed, we are. That's why I have been cautious. I have been
> pointing out how I see the "mixed tense" examples, i.e. not
> true mixed tenses, but an aspect-tense designation.
> But, as I have said more than once, my analysis may be
> incorrect.

I wouldn't say that necessarily -- mine could just as easily be wrong!
Though I think John's recent reply clears up his original examples. As
I understand him, the analogy of tense markers, whether same or different,
is to distance:

PAST : PRESENT :: FAR : NEAR

Deixis in locational pronouns is simply a matter of distance in space;
while tense markers on nouns is simply a matter of distance in time.

Now, I think he finds the marking of aspect on nouns to also be interesting
so it will be interesting to see what he comes up with...

> I agree, however, these unusual ideas are interesting.
> That's one of the joys of conlanging; one can try out all
> sorts of wacky ideas and run with them to see if they work
> or not.  Even if in the end they don't work, one often
> learns a lot of useful things on the way   :)

That is certainly true!

> Ray

Padraic

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June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 1
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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
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June 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 3
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June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
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June 2004, Week 1
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April 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 1
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August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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