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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: NATLANG: The edge of human language syntax complexity

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:18:31 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (200 lines)

R A Brown, On 25/09/2011 15:10:
> On 24/09/2011 18:19, And Rosta wrote:
>> R A Brown, On 24/09/2011 08:33:
> [snip]
>
>>> ....... It was not Jeffrey Henning's intention that
>>> Fith be human-usable and AFAIK it is _generally_
>>> accepted that full blown Fith is not. I really need to
>>> see firm evidence to the contrary and, so far, I have
>>> not seen it.
>>
>> It can also be demonstrated that full-blown English is
>> not human-usable either.
>
> How? What on earth is "full blown English"???

Recall that we had spoken of
(1a) Fith as spoken by speakers with the processing power of Fithians, which is being called 'full blown Fith'
(1b) Fith as spoken by speakers with the processing power of humans, which is being called 'shallow Fith'
(2a) English as spoken by speakers with the processing power of Fithians
(2b) English as spoken by speakers with the processing power of humans  

I'd assumed that in this context it would be obvious that "fullblown English" referred to (2a).


>  From the context it should have been obvious that by "full
> blown Fith" I meant Fith as designed by Jeffrey Henning as
> opposed to 'Shallow Fith.' The latter, as it's author
> states, "is a proper subset of Fith, with strict limits to
> stack depth and with most of the stack operators removed";
> its "sentences could be parsed as
> SOV/postposition/noun-adjective sentences by humans and as
> very simple LIFO sentences by Fithians."

Yes, this was indeed all obvious.

> By "full blown Fith" I mean, of course, Fith without stack
> depth limitation and with all the stack operators defined by
> its author.
>
> To me English, synchronically, are all the manifestations,
> whether spoken or written, of those who currently speak
> English as their L1 or, if fluent, as their L2 or L3
> (trilingualism being relatively common outside of the
> monoglot anglophone world). To talk of some prescriptive
> "full blown" English makes no sense to me.

I don't know what you have in mind when you speak of 'some prescriptive "full blown" English', but obviously prescriptiveness is irrelevant to this discussion and to the notion "English as spoken by speakers with the processing power of Fithians".

> On 25/09/2011 11:46, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>> And's argument about Fithians being better at parsing
>> English than native speakers of English thus fails. But
>> alas, we don't have any Fithians at our disposal to test
>> these hypotheses.
>
> Alas not - which IMO makes all the arguments about whether
> Fithians would be better or worse at parsing English than L1
> anglophones a bit pointless.

I am astonished by these statements. I know myself to have a character flaw of too quickly & often mistakenly leaping to the conclusion that my interlocutors are, out of bloody-mindedness, being deliberately obtuse; but with that confession out of the way, I do declare myself astonished that you both purport not to understand that the notion of Fithians speaking English is a thought-experimental conlang-centric way of considering the processability of English by a processor with much greater working memory than humans have, which is also a way of distinguishing between processability due to what kinds of grammatical structures a language has and processability due to the processing abilities of the language user. But even as I write this I realize with sinking heart that maybe you had indeed not grasped this point, in which case I ask your forgiveness and hope that my explanation has now clarified things.

>>> You are quite right - the way to test it is for two (or
>>> more) people to learn it and try to use properly (*not*
>>> in the Shallow Fith version) it as a spoken language.
>>> (Written would be no good as it would give time for one
>>> to work through the stacks and puzzle the thing out).
>>
>> Right. And I guess that they will fail, and end up
>> actually speaking something like Shallow Fith, avoiding
>> those parts of the language that are difficult or
>> impossible to handle; but before we can be sure about
>> that, that experiment needs first to be carried out in
>> practice.
>
> Yep - no one in this thread, as far as I see, has denied the
> possibility of some sort of human-usable stack-based
> language. After all, Forth programmers and even LISP
> programmers are human ;)

Since in all likelihood human natlangs are stack-based, the existence and human-usability of natlangs proves the human-usability  of stack-based languages.

R A Brown, On 24/09/2011 20:59:
> On 24/09/2011 19:18, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>> On Saturday 24 September 2011 19:19:35, And Rosta wrote:
>>> R A Brown, On 24/09/2011 08:33:
>>>> On 24/09/2011 04:57, Alex Fink wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:17:19 +0100, AndRosta wrote:
>>>>>> Fithians could speak human languages far better
>>>>>> than humans (i.e. produce and comprehend
>>>>>> grammatical sentences of far greater complexity
>>>>>> than humans can cope with in real time).
>
> [snip]
>>>> And's statement above is, of course, scientifically
>>>> untestable as Fithians are a fictitious race.
>>>
>>> However, it is trivially simple, with a mere second or
>>> two's reflection, to translate my statement into
>>> something substantively equivalent that is
>>> scientifically testable: A machine with the processing
>>> abilities attributed to Fithians could speak human
>>> languages far better than humans (i.e. produce and
>>> comprehend grammatical sentences of far greater
>>> complexity than humans can cope with in real time.
>>
>> Sure can such a machine be built (or rather programmed,
>> as this seems to be a matter of software). But is that
>> meaningful from a *linguistic* standpoint?
>
> Our current Von Neumann machines are remarkably good at
> stack-processing. I have not the slightest doubt that a
> modern computer could be readily programmed to "understand"
> and generate full-blown Fith.
>
> But I do have some experience with natural language
> processing by computer and, unless things have radically
> changed since I retired, the poor Von Neumann machines do
> not find natlangs particularly easy!

But limitations of working memory is not one of the things that are difficult. Also, it's not the machines themselves that don't find natlangs easy; rather it's the programmers, who are unable to program computers with knowledge of how natlangs work, because nobody yet understands (to a sufficient level of thoroughness) how natlangs work.

>> On Saturday 24 September 2011 18:03:05, Jim Henry wrote:
>>> If, as And says, the formally specified Lojban and the
>>> actually spoken Lojban are two different languages, --
>>> and that seems to me a plausible claim, by analogy with
>>> the conlang speaker community I know more about, that
>>> of Esperanto -- then it gets harder to make statements
>>> of scientific interest about what Lojban tells us about
>>> the human capacity for language.
>
> But that is just an example of the diglossia that often occurs in
> language. In the 19th and earlier patty of the 20th century modern
> Greek existed both as Katharevousa and in various Demotic forms.
> Eventually a standard emerged based on the speech of educated
> Athenians, basically Demotic but clearly influenced by Katharevousa.
> But no one claimed that these were anything other than different
> varieties of modern Greek.

I originally said there are "three Lojbans" -- if to you this patently means something other than "three different varieties of Lojban", rephrase what I said as "three different varieties of Lojban". The point is that there are three different langues, and whether they each somehow count as Lojban, or whether one of them has privileged status, is not the point.
  
> That a similar diglossia exists in Lobbanistan is not unlikely, but I
> would feel happier getting the information from those who actually
> used Lojbabn.

Unless they are me?

R A Brown, On 26/09/2011 08:49:
> On 25/09/2011 18:55, And Rosta wrote:
>> chance or because of their improbable meaning
>> ("Colourless green ideas")
>
> (a)Fairly bland and unexciting ideas about the environment
> _or_
> (b) Fairly bland and unexciting ideas of a newbie
>
> Yep - that word "green" is a bit ambiguous, but (a) is IMO
> the more likely meaning in our current society.

This is an allusion to a famous example of Chomsky's, "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously", which is standardly adduced as an example of something that is grammatical but improbable on account of its meaning. By recognizing the distinction between the two (grammaticality vs improbability of meaning), an explanation of what does and doesn't appear in parole can factor out from langue the matters of world knowledge and human nature that determine what is unsaid merely because nobody ever feels the inclination to say it.

The point I was making is that even if parole is your ultimate explanandum, a theory of parole that includes a theory of langue makes for a much more effective theory of parole.

> On 23/09/2011 21:17, And Rosta wrote:
> [snip]
>> ........... (I should add that it's been many years
>> since I actually read Lojban, and it's quite possible
>> that the standard of Lojban usage has improved from what
>> it used to be.)
>
> My understanding is that after about 20 years of development
> the language was 'baselined' in 1997 (i.e. given a formally
> defined grammar and a dictionary) but that the baseline
> would last *only five years.* That is, after a period of
> development and change, the language was given a standard by
> the Logical Language Group (LLG) rather in the way that the
> French Academy attempts to give a standard to French. *But
> clearly the LLG expected the Lojban to continue to develop*
> otherwise there would be no point in a review of the baseline
> after five years. Indeed such a review did take place, so I
> understand, in 2002.

This is not inaccurate in itself, but it is a very incomplete picture, and while the view you describe still persists today, it is nowadays a minoritarian one among Lojbanists. (I say this based not on a survey of every Lojbanist, tho I expect such a survey would follow the pattern I describe, but on the views of those who voice them, with particular attention paid to those most actively involved with the language.)
  
>  From what I can see, Lojban is, like all languages that are
> actually used, changing and developing as the Lojban
> community use it and the LLG act more like the French
> Academy. Therefore, to my empirical way of thinking, the
> idea of a Lojban(1), Lojban(2) etc is linguistically bogus.

I think you are obsessing unduly about the names of things. The distinction between the three langues is obviously not bogus, but you want to reserve the name 'Lojban' only for the third type. Well, yours is not a view standard among Lojbanists themselves, but I was trying to make a substantive point, not make a claim about the proper applicability of the name 'Lojban'. I'll call them whatever you like.
  
> I cannot go alongwith any notion that there is some 'perfect Form of
> English' or 'perfect Form of Lojban' or indeed any other language. My
> approach is unashamedly empirical.

That's okay, but most Lojbanists are attracted to Lojban on account of its explicitly specified langue that has desirable properties like unambiguity, i.e. 'Lojban1' or whatever you prefer to call it, and the object that interests you, mainstream parole, which is not explicitly specified, and may lack those desirable properties, is of no interest or appeal to them. Obviously the reason why Lojban gets cited in discussions of human-usability is precisely because we have Lojban1 on the one hand and Lojban2 on the other.


--And.

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March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
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May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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