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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Enough of this (was: NATLANG: The edge of human language syntax complexity)

From:

Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:40:08 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (112 lines)

I'm not certain I would characterize a mathematical axiom as an assumption,
but perhaps I fail to understand your objection.


On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 6:36 PM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Whether I believe it is irrelevant. I was just pointing out that your
> argument consists of "If we assume A, how can A be true?"
>
> stevo
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >  On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 6:09 PM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <
> > [log in to unmask]
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > =====================================
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Finally, I read Plato as part of my BA degree very many
> > > > > > years ago; I was not persuaded by his theory of Forms
> > > > > > ("Ideas") then and have not been since. I cannot go along
> > > > > > with any notion that there is some 'perfect Form of English'
> > > > > > or 'perfect Form of Lojban' or indeed any other language. My
> > > > > > approach is unashamedly empirical.
> > > > >
> > > > > Same to me.  How can eternal, unchangeable Forms account for
> > > > > a universe which is characterized by variation, evolution and
> > > > > creativity?  One would have to assume an infinity of Forms
> > > > > for everything that could ever be, most of which are never
> > > > > ever manifested in the physical world.  To me, that is nonsense.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > That would be nonsense, or at least pretty unlikely, but that's not
> the
> > > sum
> > > > total of Platonism.  In fact, Platonic forms may be more or less
> > roughly
> > > > equivalent to universal laws, which even you empiricists admit do not
> > > > change
> > > > (at least, not since the establishment of the universe).  The laws of
> > > > geometry do not change, and we can imagine that an alien with no
> > contact
> > > > with human culture would very likely develop something quite a bit
> like
> > > the
> > > > Pythagorean theorem all on its own.  Yet the universe is not, on the
> > > whole,
> > > > a plane, and no triangle within the physical universe is a perfect
> > right
> > > > triangle, so how can it be that two beings separated by lightyears
> > could
> > > > acquire the same thought?  If the Pyth. th. is an approximation based
> > on
> > > > empirical evidence, then how is it that two people separated in time
> > and
> > > > space could make the same exactly approximation?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Because that's part of your initial assumption: "we can imagine that an
> > > alien with no contact
> > > with human culture would very likely develop something quite a bit like
> > the
> > > Pythagorean theorem all on its own."
> > >
> > > stevo
> > >
> > > Do you regard it as possible, then, that an alien orbiting another
> planet
> > in another solar system might conclude, correctly, that for any right
> > triangle in a plane  x^3 + y^3 = z^3?  Or does x^2 + y^2 = z^2 describe
> > every single right (planar) triangle?   If you believe the former, then
> you
> > claim something intuitively and logically -- ahem -- unusual.  If you
> > believe the latter, then you (or someone, somewhere) needs to account for
> > how it can be that we can make universally true claims about ideal
> objects.
> >
> > When we do make contact with extraterrestrial intelligence (or they with
> > us), I imagine our very first conversations will consist of x^2 + y^2 =
> > z^2,
> > and 3.14159 . . . so that we can judge whether or not they know this.  If
> > our friends from Gliese say back to us, No, it's not 3.14159, it's 4 1/3,
> I
> > imagine we will think them not very smart.  (Of course, correcting for
> base
> > and so on, just for you Mensa members who will insist on that)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >  Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available
> for
> > pre-order from Finishing Line
> > Press<
> > http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>.
> >
>



-- 
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
pre-order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>.

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