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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Conjugating Nouns

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:23:32 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (188 lines)

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 3:32 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On 28/09/2011 04:42, Padraic Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>>>
>>> To me the problem with John's idea is that he is
>>> applying to nouns a concept that more properly goes
>>> with the verb or, if you prefer, with the clause as a
>>> whole.
>>
>> Well, there's another interesting question. Now, I
>> happen to have a similar expectation of verbs and time.
>> But why must concepts like time (tense, that is) "more
>> properly" go with a verb than a noun?
>
> That is not what I said. In fact, I say below that I find
> the idea of nouns with time inflexion interesting.

I'm just considering further, based on what you did say about
concepts that "more properly go with the verb" being placed
with the noun. My question is simply "why is it more proper
to place certain concepts with the verb rather than the noun?"

>> Substantives exist and act in time as well as space, so
>> why not associate both with the noun?
>
> But I agree!

No doubt! I am simply wondering why we so regularly mark the
verb for time, rather than the noun, who is actually the one that
is acting in and through time! I think we can see, much like Tupi,
verbs in terms of timeless action. "Go" simply implies the "action
of moving from one place to another". It's not until we conjugate
it that it takes on aspects of time and, well, aspect: went, have
gone, etc.

I think we could say it is not really the action of the verb that is
happening in the past or the future, but that the agent is moving
about and acting in time as well as place. So rather than "I went
to the shops"; "[yester-]I go to the shops". Or, "I who am me in
yesterday's time engage in the action of moving from this place to
the place of the shops".

>>> The natlangs which show time inflexions on nouns do so
>>> with reference to the noun itself, not to the sentence
>>> as a whole. That is, house.PAST = "something that was
>>> once a house" and house.FUTURE = "something that will
>>> one day be a house"; cf. Tupi: abáűera "he who was once
>>> a man" abárama "he who shall be a man someday"
>
> I wrote later in my email "Personally, I find the sort of
> 'tense marking' of Tupi (and Leibniz) more interesting."
> Maybe you did not notice that.

I know only what I've divined at the Fount of All Wisdom. The
inflexion does seem interesting.

> My criticism was *not* of having time inflexions on nouns.

I didn't take that as a criticism. As a matter of fact, I didn't take
you to be criticisng ánything!

> My point was that if nouns (or verbs, for that matter) have
> time inflexions then IMO they should relate to the noun
> itself, i.e. house.Past = "something was once a house."

I understand that.

> My point that John was not doing that; the inflexion he puts
> on his subjects and objects refer to the _action_ or
> _situation_ itself.  Cf. his example:
>  "The cat-PAST eat the mouse-PAST."

Indeed. This was my point as well!

> While indeed the mouse no longer exists as a mouse,
> presumably the cat is still around to consume other rodents.
>  cat.PAST does not mean "something that was once a cat" nor,
> at the time of the eating was the mouse once a mouse.  It
> was still a mouse.

Right. "cat-PAST" simply means *this here cat as it existed and
physically manifested in the physical realms at a given point in
the past*. It doesn't mean "kitten" or refer in any way to the animal
itself, but rather to the animal's temporal positioning. The verb is
utterly divorced from all relationship with the time of the action,
being stated simply as a non-temporal description of the action
itself. So "eat" would be eat whether the eating takes place in
the past, present or future.

> In terms of relative time, both the cat and the mouse were
> both _present_ at the time of the eating.

The cat-PAST would be a hungry cat if the mouse-PAST were not
in the vicinity at the time!

> What is past is the eating itself.  That is why IMO the
> 'pastness' is more properly expressed either with some
> verbal inflexion or with a separate particle that applies to
> the clause as a whole.

Okay. I have no issue with this at all, though that doesn't appear
to be what has been described in the examples.

>>> It seems to me that in that situation mixing the
>>> tenses on different nouns in the same clause does not
>>> make sense. Either mark one noun, i.e. the subject, or
>>>  insist that all nouns "agree", i.e. are marked the
>>> same way.
>>
>> That's fair.
>
> Yes, the problems arose with:
> "Me-PAST make me-PRESENT broke"
> "Me-FUTURE make me-PRESENT broke"
>
> I, who was there in past, make me, who am here now, broke.
>
> I, who will be in the future, make me, who am here now, broke.
>
> Um - now I write it out in full, the first one makes sense.
>  It was a past me that has made [ah - present perfect] me
> broke. Yep - that aspectual business creeps in.

Or not. I think it is a matter of perspective. I certainly see where
it can creep in, but it doesn't have to. As I read your "translations",
I see no particular evidence of what we'd call aspect. It could
certainly be marked in some way -- I just don't see it in the
examples provided.

Aspect only creeps in when you provide a smooth English translation:
"has made me broke"! This is not present in the examples nor
in the literal translations, as I read them.

> But the second one does not seem to me to be sense.  Some
> future action on my part may well make me broke, but that
> will be in the future.

Right. I think I mentioned before that, for me, this doesn't make sense
because a future action, assuming the normal flow of time, can't
affect the future's past, which is our present. Thus, future-me can not
make present-me broke.

>> I haven't worked out yet whether or not I would mark all
>>  nouns, or just for example the topic. If YESTER-man did
>>  some action, would the object of his action need to
>> even be marked? If it were marked, would it have to agree
>> in time? If it didn't agree in time, what would that
>> mean?
>
> Exactly!

And the answer is, I haven't worked out those particulars yet. I am leaning
towards marking only the topic -- the agent, really, I suppose. Unless, as
in your example, the agent and the patient are in different times, then I
think both would háve to be marked.

So:

the [yester-]cat eat the mouse

but

[yester-]I make [now-]me broke

I kind of like the Tupi way as well: mark the (agent) noun for tense but not the
verb; mark the verb for person but not tense. I am thinking of using modals for
mood and possibly aspect marking. So if I wanted to backtranslate your
smooth English, I'd say:

[yester-]I have/had/did/etc make [today-]me penniless.

BTW I also like the Tupi marking of people-class and animal/inanimate class
nouns.

> Ray

Padraic
-- 

En matinamver na, IC pirperato sarccim pros iscôm mathętes; ett’ ica
pejeito adis nesser:
acco, qouem mi moulvaniccere pros vassermet, qouem, moulvaniccere vas
itan pros al pouvres.

One morning, Jesus prepared food for his disciples; and he said to
them: look, what I do for you,
that, you do it for the poor.

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March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 1
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June 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
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October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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