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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Conjugating Nouns

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:14:20 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (202 lines)

On 25/09/2011 16:26, Brian A. Woodward wrote:
[snip]
> Ray,
>
> Are you interpreting those sentences somewhat like
> mathematical equations?

Not consciously so. I'm seeing a pattern - possibly
mistakenly - in John's sentence with "mixed tenses" and then
interpreting the example with the two "same tenses" in the
same way.

> (I'm asking honestly, forgive me, I'm new to the mailing
>  list, I'm not sure how people will react to me yet.)

Welcome! As for reaction, favorably I hope.

> As far as the math goes it seems that you are saying
> (past subject)+(past object)=(past perfective), which
> would lead to other possible equations in the language.
> However, in my opinion, I viewed it as simply a
> different location for a marker that occurs in most
> languages.

That's also as I saw it on first read.  It's the "mixed
tense" examples that caused me to wonder what was going on.

[snip]
> And as far as the subject and object carrying the same
> markers that could just be simple word agreement in the
> sentence, just like the languages that make their words
> agree for negativity (e.g. Spanish using No hay nada to
> represent the English equivalent of There are none,
> where the verb and the determiner are negated in Spanish
> but the verb in English is positive with a negative
> determiner)

Yes, that is actually very common in the world's languages.
It was normal in ancient Greek, and it's common enough in
colloquial English.  But Classical Latin did not allow it
and, therefore, "double negatives" are considered wrong in
standard English.

But in all these languages the verb is negated and other
words also take negative forms.  A parallel would be if the
verb showed, either by inflexion or a separate particle,
past tense and other words also reflected past tense.  But
the point is that in John's language the verb simply does
not show tense.

> don't change the meaning of the sentence they just have
> different words agree or not agree. (I really hope that
> all made sense.)

It does - tho see above.

> Of course, then you have to take into account the mixed
> tenses, which, now that I think about it even more I
> find myself (present) convincing myself (immediate
> future) that the mixed tenses would add aspect into the
> mix as you suggested (this mixture [present-immediate
> future] being a form of present progressive).

Present predictive, I think.  Present progressive would
denote something actually in progress in the present time.

> But after hashing out the details wouldn't inflecting
> nouns for tense be just a case of cognitive
> understanding of the world and cause no real problem of
> miscommunication? (This is not a rhetorical question
> either.)

If all nouns (like the negative example) showed the same
tense, I agree there would be no cause for miscommunication.
  It's the mixed tense examples that confuse the issue.
=============================================================

On 25/09/2011 17:39, Padraic Brown wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 9:17 AM, R A
Brown wrote:
[snip]

> shown by the verb, not the noun. Even if aspect is shown
>  by the noun, it doesn't appear in ány of the examples,
> including the mixed time one I snipped. Unless "PAST" is
>  also being used to indicate aspect(s).

Exactly so.  Usually what is called the "past participle" in
European languages & conlangs is, in fact, a _perfect_
participle, e.g.
La kato estas [pres. indicative] manĝita ['past' part.] la
muson = The cat has eaten the mouse.

It seemed to me that in the "mixed tense" examples the
"tense" on the subject has a more 'participle-like' function
in relation to the tense on the object.  That's why I wrote:

[snip]
>> It seems to me that in the examples he gave, the
>> inflexion on the subject gives the aspect and that on
>> the object gives the tense, i.e. "Me-PAST make
>> me-PRESENT broke," = me.PERF make me.PRES = I have been
>> made broke [as a result of past financial decision]
>
> I see where you're coming from -- but I could just as
> easily say "My past self made my present self broke" --
> no aspect given.

Not so certain. We seem to me to have a present state of
affairs which has resulted from a past action (i.e. my poor
financial decision in the past). This is surely what the
_perfect_ aspect is about, isn't it?

>> "Me-FUTURE make me-PRESENT broke," = me.PREDICT make
>> m.PRES = I am going to be made broke [as a result of
>> upcoming financial obligations].
>
> This one doesn't work, because I-PRESENT am still
> fiscally solvent.

I know that! That's why I suggested it is a _present
predictive_.

Often the predictive aspect is shown by the so-called
"future participle", cf.
Mi estas [pres. indic.] insolventiĝonta [future part.] =
I am going to become broke [[as a result of upcoming
financial obligations].

It does work - tho I admit the sentence may well be capable
of a different analysis.

[snip]
>
> Then there is a problem, isn't there? When aspect is
> left
unmarked, I
> assume that what is being said is purely a matter of
relative tense, not
> perfective/imperfective/progressive etc aspect.

But the problem is, I think, that 'relative tense' often
strays into the territory of aspect, as my Esperanto
examples attempt to show.

[snip]
>>
>> In any case, if with these "mixed tense" examples we
>> are really getting _aspect and tense_, the question
>> arises how we express aspect and tense with
>> _intransitive_ verbs.
>
> Then it simply befalls the crafter of a language that
works this way to
> define a) what ideas get inflected by the verb and what
ideas get
> inflected by the noun and b) how the possible
> combinations
work.

Yes.

> Right now we're only guessing.

Indeed, we are. That's why I have been cautious. I have been
pointing out how I see the "mixed tense" examples, i.e. not
true mixed tenses, but an aspect-tense designation.
But, as I have said more than once, my analysis may be
incorrect.

As you write, it befalls the rafter of the language to
define what's going on.

I agree, however, these unusual ideas are interesting.
That's one of the joys of conlanging; one can try out all
sorts of wacky ideas and run with them to see if they work
or not.  Even if in the end they don't work, one often
learns a lot of useful things on the way   :)

[snip]
>
>> On 24/09/2011 17:48, John Erickson wrote: [snip]
>>>
>>> and are there any potential problems anyone can
>>> foresee from such a system?
>>
>> Yes - see my last three emails.
>
> I think our discussion here highlights several potential
issues.

They do   :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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