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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Prefix Notation for Lists of Items

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:37:57 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (160 lines)

I've wanted to get in on one of these Palno threads for awhile, as the
principles of the language I had been constructing with Robert BL were
similar.  At least there was perfect consistent headedness and every word
had a fixed arity.  So I've thought a little about some of these things;
perhaps not as incisively, since some features of that language's design
weren't conducive to seeing through this clearly.  E.g. it was isolating,
and for little good reason there was a word class that returned [shd I say
"projected to the next level"?] one of its arguments and one that returned
an abstraction of the predication instead.   

... hold on, that's _exactly_ what you're talking about here, is it not?

On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 12:43:44 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>Strict RPN/PN languages, or predicate-logic languages, don't naturally
>allow adjunction. In Palno, I hacked it together by adding morphology
>that explicitly changes which segment of a phrase is projected to the
>next level, without quite realizing that's what I was doing at the
>time, but I think that really gets to the root of the difference
>between adjunction and predication; if we analyse typical adjuncts
>(like adjectives and adverbs) as single-argument predicates, then
>predication produces a syntactic object that represents the completed
>predicate, while adjunction produces a syntactic object that
>represents the argument of the predicate.

Perhaps if my language with RBL had allowed morphology for this, it would
have come out very like Palno.  

Robert BL and I came to similar conclusions about adjunction.  However, I
never thought of it in the framing of enlarging a minimal set of syntactic
operations; we indubitably subsumed it under the same structure we used for
predication.  The measure we adopted for adjunction was a two-argument word
(intended to be light and frequent; its form was _e_) which returned the
adjunction of its arguments.  More precisely, it was actually the boolean
and of predicates, which did what one wanted for adjunction in many
circumstances.  This seems to be roughly like what And is doing for English.  

In any case, we didn't find its presence there to be ... bothersome, as if
we were realising something which was not there in the "underlying cognitive
form" (or whatever) to be realised.  

Thus also I don't really agree as regards this, at least on the framing:

And: >Ah, okay. Yes, that definition of adjunction, as a variety of
predication, makes sense to me, and indeed it is absent from ordinary
predicate-logic systems. 

It's not absent from predicate logic, because predicate logic still has
conjunction, and one can just conjoin in whatever further predications one
wants to make about the result of Logan's adjunction.  It's absent from the
procedure of giving a single predicate its arguments, but why should that be
limiting?

>Besides the Palno morphology hack, which I'm still not completely fond
>of because it leads to things being marked in odd places, 

Could you give some examples (?again)?

>you can
>simulate adjunction by specifying all predicates to have an arbitrary
>number of optional argument slots, but that leads to all kinds of
>oddness. For one, there's the aforementioned problem of how you
>specify the end of the list. 

That doesn't seem so bad to me.  You could do it with some kind of consing,
or with more morphology.  To exemplify the latter, if adjuncts are
morphologically marked, just introduce a variant of the marking for the last
adjunct ("last" meaning 'furthest from head').  I suppose you'd probably
things like that probably have the sort of fragility you had been trying to
avoid, though.  

>And for another, now you've got this
>weird situation where modifier-arguments are potentially assigning
>theta roles to their predicates, and there's a circular dependency
>between two predicates that have each other as arguments... and since
>one or the other has to come first, whichever branching direction you
>pick must be broken. So you pretty much have to have multiple lexical
>classes, or some other morphological or syntactic construct to mark
>the difference between genuine adjunction and predication.

My ruminations eventually led me to think I should really just regard an
underlying bipartite graph of referents and predications about them as
fundamental, and let utterances be tree traversals of such structures and
secondary.  I believe Rikchik does something not unlike this, as I believe
does Livagian, and it eventually informed my design of UNLWS with Sai.  



On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 15:09:02 -0600, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>Take, for example, conjunction; conjunctions can be mapped to
>two-place predicates, so they exist in Pure Palno. But transforming
>English phrases with multiple conjunction into Palno syntax results in
["draining" combinatorics]
>Not so bad at that level, but...
>English: "I bought eggs, butter, cheese, and milk and sold bacon and
>beef and you bought my bacon and beef."
>Palno-ized: "I eggs butter cheese milk and and and bought bacon beef
>and sold and you bacon my beef and bought and." or "I eggs butter and
>cheese milk and and bought bacon beef and sold and you bacon my beef
>and bought and." / "Nen jajtsui masla etat syr moloka etata etata
>kupili bekon gov:adina etata prodalia etat vas bekon gov:adina etat
>neni kupilia etat."

BTW, why is Palno lexicalised off Russian?

>Starts to get really confusing [...]

On this particular point I disagree entirely.  For one, it's surely a
distraction that you've cast the noun phrases into strict RPN but not the
conjunction of the clauses, so that more "and"s appear adjacent.  But on the
primary point, I think "A B and C and D and E and F and" for 'A & B &amp; C & D
& E & F' is not confusing, and stays not confusing as the length of the list
increases.  The stack depth is never more than one more than its final
value; the whole construction can be tail-recursed.  The ands shouldn't
(i.e. I predict wouldn't, by a hypothetical fluent user) be read with any
more weight than should the commas in "eggs, butter, cheese, milk".  

Cf. also the predicatally-pure way to write a list in a language like
Haskell, namely
  a : b : c : d : []
for [a : b : c : d].  (I would have used Lisp and "cons" and "nil" except
Lisp is too basally listsy to feel right here.)  

Cross-conlangwise, lists seem to be a common deviation from otherwise clean
(R)PNoid systems (see also Fith _nyun_, and the Rikchik scholastic).  So it
seems I'm in the minority at finding them an utterly uncompelling deviation,
marring the syntax far more than the gain is worth.

I'd agree with you here:

>Except that this problem only arose because we
>only defined a single operation for the entire language- all other
>predicates behave exactly the same way. So as you start trying to
>connect more and more constituents together in more complex sentences,
>you pretty quickly run into situations where you must have long
>strings of predicates, sometimes quite distant from their actual
>arguments, whose interpretation is very difficult to keep track of.
>Similar situations can be contrived in English, but they are not
>required.
>
>The only way to eliminate the problem is to increase the complexity of
>the grammar.

but I wouldn't pin the blame on the mere fact of (R)PN construction, 'cause
this is close to homomorphic in the relevant ways to natlangs which have
strongly consistent branching, and such natlangs survive in the wild quite
well.  I don't think *local* corrections, like having some variadic widget
for conjunction, help; they don't ameliorate the loss of context with
sundering.  
The sort of deviations from "pureness" which dō seem to help are various
moves and extrapositions that e.g. remove a heavy argument from between two
related constituents  the connection between which would otherwise be broken
in processing.  So those are the ones I reckon most important.  
(I could call this traversing my underlying graph in the right order.)

Alex

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December 1998, Week 5
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