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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Conjugating Nouns

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:42:30 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (207 lines)

On 25/09/2011 19:56, John Erickson wrote:
[snip]
>
> The original idea/plan though was to use tense marking
> kinda like distance/location marking, but the location
> would be in time. So saying "The cat-in-the-past eats
> the mouse-in-the-past" would be like saying "The cat-
> way-over-there eats the mouse-way-over-there," and "The
> cat-now eats the mouse-now" would be like "The cat-here
> eats the mouse-here."

That's how I understood it the first time round; but ....

[snip]
>
> For example: "The cat-in-the-past eats the mouse-now"
> wouldn't make any more sense than "The
> cat-way-over-there eats the mouse-here."

Indeed - but "The cat-way-over-there has eaten the
mouse-here" makes perfect sense (sorry about the pun). We
have here the _present perfect_; that is why I then assumed
that the so-called "tense inflexion" on the subject was in
fact indicating aspect.

[snip]
>
> But like I said, I have a lot to consider before decide
> exactly how to implement it.

Sure.
===========================================================

On 26/09/2011 02:11, Padraic Brown wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 3:14 PM, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>
> I think confusion primarily arises because the grammar
> of the conlang has not yet been specified. All we are
> doing is throwing ideas around and hashing out our
> interpretation of data that has not even been defined as
> of yet!

Yes.

> And of course, it's only us confusing outselves!

I'm not so sure.  I think rather it's making us to define 
ideas or different points of view.  Hopefully, it will give
John ideas to work on.

[snip]
>>
>> Exactly so.  Usually what is called the "past
>> participle" in European languages&  conlangs is, in
>> fact, a _perfect_ participle, e.g. La kato estas
>> [pres. indicative] manįita ['past' part.] la muson =
>> The cat has eaten the mouse.
>
> That begs the question: why must we assume that aspect
> is integrated with the tense marker *in this proposed
> system*? (I.e., not in E-o.)

Because that's the way I made any sense out of the "mixed
tense" examples.  It may they were given with "tongue in
cheek" and in the end John will stick with "same tense" system.

Also, of course, as I've pointed out, intransitive verbs do
not have this facility of having subject & object with
different time inflexions (unless - help! - every noun in a
sentence will have its own time inflexion).

One must also query impersonal verbs; they presumably will
have to be given a dummy subject (like 'it' in English, e.g.
it's raining).

[snip]
>>
>> Not so certain. We seem to me to have a present state
>> of affairs which has resulted from a past action (i.e.
>> my poor financial decision in the past). This is surely
>> what the _perfect_ aspect is about, isn't it?
>
> Only because we expect it!

I don't understand.  Either the perfect aspect does have a
definition or it doesn't. According to Larry Trask (A
Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics) the perfect
is a "distinctive *aspect* most typically expressing a state
resulting from an earlier event."

He does go on to say that in "English and other languages,
the same form is also used to express other related but
distinct apectual notices", and goes on to give examples of
such from English.

[snip]
>
> As I understand English verbal conjugation, aspect is
> pretty integral:
>
> I cook = habitual aspect I am cooking = progressive
> aspect I will have cooked = future perfect I will be
> cooking = future progressive I had cooked = past perfect
>
> etc. We don't really separate time and aspect that well.
>
We don't.  It always apparent when my daughter, whose lived
in the USA for the past couple of decades, visits us that
British and US use of the so-called 'past simple' and
'present perfect' in English do not coincide on the two
sides of the Pond - there is considerable variation.

But that's really beside the point. I think it should be
clear that by 'present perfect' I mean a present situation
that has resulted from a past event - in this case, a cat
who has consumed a mouse.

[snip]
>
> Yes. Though, with a specified aspect marker, I for one
> am more content with your interpretation than I was when
> the only markers were for tense. Though I don't
> necessarily agree that the me-PREDICT construction
> necessarily equates to the me-FUTURE .. me-PRESENT
> construction.
>
> Me-PRESENT.PREDICT that me-FUTURE might bankrupt
> me-FAR.FUTURE however!

There's always a problem with the future - because it's
unknown. It's why some languages have use mood such as
subjunctive to express this idea.  Even in English we don't
have a future tense per_se, but use _modal verbs_ such as
_will_ and _shall_.
=============================================================
On 26/09/2011 03:07, Brian wrote:
> Would something like this type of construction work? It's
> not all inclusive, obviously, but hopefully it gets my
> point across. If there is any confusion I'd be glad to
> clarify.
>
> Haku-ne igoso pede-ne
> The cat-PRESENT eat the
> mouse-PRESENT The cat eats the mouse
>
> Haku-su igoso pede-su
> The cat-FUTURE eat the
> mouse-FUTURE The cat will eat the mouse
>
> Haku-ne igoso-ne pede-ne
 > The cat-PRESENT eat-PROGRESSIVE
> the mouse-PRESENT The cat is eating the mouse
>
> Haku-su igoso-ne pede-su
> The cat-FUTURE eat-PROGRESSIVE
> the mouse-FUTURE The cat will be eating the mouse
>
> Haku-su igoso pede-ne
> The cat-FUTURE eat the
> mouse-PRESENT The cat will have eaten the mouse.

Why?  In the two previous examples the verb has carried an
_aspectual flexion_. Patrick, not without some reason,  does
not like my conflating tense and aspect inflexions. This
strikes my as even more confusing.  If aspect is to be shown
by a verbal inflexion then surely the future perfect should be:
The cat-FUTURE eat-PERFECT mouse-FUTURE

After all, at the time the sentence is uttered (or written)
both the cat and the mouse _are still alive_.

> Haku-ne igoso pede-ge
> The cat-PRESENT eat the mouse-PAST
> The cat has eaten the mouse

In a similar way, the _present_ perfect (assuming that "has
eaten" does have that meaning) should be:
The cat-PRESENT eat-PERFECT mouse-PRESENT

Both the cat and the mouse _are now_ in a different state as
a result of a past event, i.e. the cat's munching of the
mouse: the cat is now feeling fuller and the mouse is in the
process of being digested     :)

{snip]
=====================================================

The problem, a I see it, occurs when the time inflexion
occurs on both the subject and the object.  I have to ask:

Do all nouns have to have a time inflexion?

If YES, then what happens if we have, say, four nouns in a
sentence and we have a mix of present, past and future?

If NO, then why does the object have to have a time inflexion?

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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