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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Defining terms (was: Inside jokes)

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:36:56 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (123 lines)

On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Brian Woodward <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

>  On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Coincidentally, there's a show on tonight (BBC1 I think) with *some
> > bishop*
> > > discussing how modern Britain needs religion to fix all its apparent
> > > problems. Which made me think that perhaps "religion" is too loose a
> term
> > in
> > > itself and can probably be (in my mind at least) broken down into three
> > > components of which a person can have varying levels of pursuit of.
> > >
> > > 1) *Belief*; I seem to recall a furore over whether Wicca was a
> > legitimate
> > > religion. A (rather nice, I've met her) lady over in East Manchester
> was
> > > trying to get the upstairs of her metaphysical shop classed as an
> > official
> > > place of worship (and, incidentally, claim for funding to open a "faith
> > > school"). It appears that, under English law at least, a religion
> > requires a
> > > belief in a "single god". Neopaganism gets around this by claiming that
> > The
> > > Lord and The Lady are merely representatives of a single divine force:
> > hence
> > > Wicca is a religion.
> > >
> > > OT: Unfortunately, the shop has not received official status and her
> > calls
> > > for a Wiccan faith school have not been heeded. The case continues, as
> > they
> > > say.
> > >
> > > 2) *Faith* That is, acting in accordance with the ethical rules of the
> > > religion in question. What I assume *this bishop dude* is saying is
> that
> > the
> > > British need to adhere to a certain set of ethical guidelines
> independent
> > of
> > > Law which act in an interdictory fashion; "morals". OT: the thing is,
> > > *faith* does not rely upon *belief*, *belief* is merely a very good way
> > to
> > > enforce *faith*.
> > >
> > > 3) *Ritual*, doing stuff which doesn't relate to ethics but relates to
> a
> > > particular set of religious teachings such as going to church, wearing
> a
> > > hijab, wearing your hair long, not eating pork, etc and everything
> within
> > > the particular religion's "mythology" (please don't take offence at
> this
> > > term). As it strikes me, two religions can be pretty much identical (or
> > > three, even, such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam) in *belief* and
> > > *faith*, but be so different in *ritual* as to cause huge amounts of
> > > conflict.
> > >
> > > I don't want to cross the line into NCNC but I believe the last
> statement
> > is quite in error.  To my perspective Christianity, Judaism and Islam
> most
> > closely approach each other in your category Faith, with Judaism and
> Islam
> > having a great deal in common in your category Ritual, but Christianity
> > less
> > so, but still sharing significant details especially with Judaism
> > especially
> > in the more formal denominations.  However, it is in the category Belief,
> > where you say the three are most similar that they are, in fact, the most
> > divergent.  Also, I find your labels less than optimal, since to me
> belief
> > and faith within the context of my religion are normally synonymous, and
> > thus libel to cause a great deal of confusion among your terms.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > Adam
> >
> I've always discerned faith and belief as two separate entities myself.
> Faith as being a belief in something without evidence of any sort to show
> for it and belief being a belief in something without empirical evidence.
> In
> other words, with faith you have no evidence to prove what you believe and
> with belief you have some "evidence" to back up your belief using
> suppositions, assumptions, and highly varying perceptions.
>
>
I wouldn't agree with this, but I'm afraid that explaining why, would
require straying far into the NCNC territory, because it would require open
discussion of my religion.


> To Adam,
> I find that interesting that according to you in the context of your
> religion that faith and belief are synonymous. And I'm speaking from a
> strictly linguistic standpoint so please don't take offense, I mean none.
> It
> would seem that your beliefs govern your perception of semantics. And I
> don't mean just you personally I mean it as a general rule (possibly). It
> seems like a "reversed-Sapir-Whorf-like" concept in which the way you
> choose
> to believe and perceive the world determine how you perceive semantics;
> choosing one's own manner of speaking (in the context of meaning of words)
> based on your own choices of a "belief system" (broadly defined in this
> context as your world view). This is all just an observation but then
> again,
> I'm an amateur in linguistics, not having had any formal study at all.
>

I take no offense whatsoever.  I think you have rather accurately stated
something I have found to be true on this list.  I frequently have to take a
step back and translate statements made by members of this list -- translate
their statements from Atheist into some equivalent in Christian, because if
I took their statements at face value, interpreting them as they at first
seem, then they would necessarily be designed to be, at best, offensive; at
worst, hate speech.  But once translated, they are rather more innocuous.

Adam

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