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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Conjugating Nouns

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 08:32:13 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (117 lines)

On 28/09/2011 04:42, Padraic Brown wrote:
[snip]
>> To me the problem with John's idea is that he is
>> applying to nouns a concept that more properly goes
>> with the verb or, if you prefer, with the clause as a
>> whole.
>
> Well, there's another interesting question. Now, I
> happen to have a similar expectation of verbs and time.
> But why must concepts like time (tense, that is) "more
> properly" go with a verb than a noun?

That is not what I said. In fact, I say below that I find
the idea of nouns with time inflexion interesting.

> Substantives exist and act in time as well as space, so
> why not associate both with the noun?

But I agree!

>> The natlangs which show time inflexions on nouns do so
>> with reference to the noun itself, not to the sentence
>> as a whole. That is, house.PAST = "something that was
>> once a house" and house.FUTURE = "something that will
>> one day be a house"; cf. Tupi: abáűera "he who was once
>> a man" abárama "he who shall be a man someday"

I wrote later in my email "Personally, I find the sort of
'tense marking' of Tupi (and Leibniz) more interesting."
Maybe you did not notice that.

My criticism was *not* of having time inflexions on nouns.
My point was that if nouns (or verbs, for that matter) have
time inflexions then IMO they should relate to the noun
itself, i.e. house.Past = "something was once a house."

My point that John was not doing that; the inflexion he puts
on his subjects and objects refer to the _action_ or
_situation_ itself.  Cf. his example:
  "The cat-PAST eat the mouse-PAST."

While indeed the mouse no longer exists as a mouse,
presumably the cat is still around to consume other rodents.
  cat.PAST does not mean "something that was once a cat" nor,
at the time of the eating was the mouse once a mouse.  It
was still a mouse.

In terms of relative time, both the cat and the mouse were
both _present_ at the time of the eating.

What is past is the eating itself.  That is why IMO the
'pastness' is more properly expressed either with some
verbal inflexion or with a separate particle that applies to
the clause as a whole.

> Interesting indeed. I had been thinking on this today
> and how it would apply to the language and people I'm
> thinking of. I think their perspective of objects in
> time is parallel to that of objects in space. If I'm
> sitting in a chair in a corner of the room, the various
> chairs, bookcases and other objects are arrayed in space
>  relatively near and far from me. But, not only are they
>  arrayed in space, but also in time.

I know, that is why I said I find tense marking on nouns
interesting.

>>
>> But in John's proposal man.PAST does not mean "he who
>> was once a man", but "he who was there at the time
>> referred to in the rest of the clause."
>
> Yes, that's how I understand it. It's a matter of
> perspective I suppose.
>
>> It seems to me that in that situation mixing the
>> tenses on different nouns in the same clause does not
>> make sense. Either mark one noun, i.e. the subject, or
>>  insist that all nouns "agree", i.e. are marked the
>> same way.
>
> That's fair.

Yes, the problems arose with:
"Me-PAST make me-PRESENT broke"
"Me-FUTURE make me-PRESENT broke"

I, who was there in past, make me, who am here now, broke.

I, who will be in the future, make me, who am here now, broke.

Um - now I write it out in full, the first one makes sense.
  It was a past me that has made [ah - present perfect] me
broke. Yep - that aspectual business creeps in.

But the second one does not seem to me to be sense.  Some
future action on my part may well make me broke, but that
will be in the future.


> I haven't worked out yet whether or not I would mark all
>  nouns, or just for example the topic. If YESTER-man did
>  some action, would the object of his action need to
> even be marked? If it were marked, would it have to agree
> in time? If it didn't agree in time, what would that
> mean?

Exactly!

Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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