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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Re-conlangs (was: What's your dictionary form?)

From:

Basilius <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 23 Sep 2011 16:32:11 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (186 lines)

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 19:55:08 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>Hallo conlangers!
>
>On Friday 16 September 2011 16:31:47, Basilius wrote:

[...]

>> (Note also that "model" is not my word in this discussion; I don't consider
>> "modelling" a felicitous metaphor for what scientific research does, but
>> that's a big and mostly unrelated issue by itself, and I won't be picky
>> about this language, since it's common and I understand it.)
>
>I think the metaphor is apt, and used by scholars of all trades.
>Scientists often work with a representation of the studied object
>rather than the object itself - and guess what is the word for
>such a representation: _model_.

My comments on this will be sheer offtopic, but your statement kinda demands
them. To begin with, I'd reword my claim: what I cautiously termed
"metaphor" should be properly considered a harmful meme ("research =
modelling"), i. e. an idea that enters minds somehow bypassing critical
thinking; and, as this discussion shows, it spawns other harmful memes, like
"reconstructions are conlangs".

To put it short: scientific research crucially depends on bits which aren't
as aptly covered by the term "modelling", and models used in scientific
research are very special type, better to be kept apart from the rest.

Thus, the example of model railroads adduced in this discussion illustrates
that the default association for the word "modelling" is imitative (rather
than structural) modelling, whose use in research is a particularly
complicated matter. Various methods of obtaining and preparing useful data,
from properly washing one's test tubes to purging web service logs from bots
to nitpicking possible errors in neutrino speed measurements, are not
"modelling" per se (and trying to force them into that category leads to
circular arguments). And modelling tends to get cheaper, while useful source
data are always dear.  Models used in, and produced by, scientific research
(often) need interpretation - one can call it meta-modelling, but it's not
something implied by "modelling" in general. Etc. etc. etc.

[...]

>> >> Alternatively, you can consider everything written in grammars (all
>> >> kinds of
>> >> grammars) as describing conlangs rather than natlangs, for grammars are
>> >> just
>> >> models, after all. But very few people will agree with you on that, I
>> >> guess.
>> >
>> >Non-sequitur. This just does not follow from what I've said, so I'd by
>> >happy if you wouldn't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.
>
>Indeed, it doesn't follow.  Christophe is right here.

OK, in smaller bits. 

If a reconstruction is a conlang because it's a model, and every language
description is a model, then every natlang description is a conlang.

However, if Christophe and you agree that a natlang description is a model
(and you do, as I understand), and don't agree that every natlang
description is a conlang, then the logic "a model, therefore, a conlang"
does not work - which conclusion seems to contradict your and Christophe's
statements, if I understood them correctly.

[...]

(On Classical Latin)

>> >> >Only as much as written French is, i.e. a consciously controlled
>> >> >version
>> >>
>> >> of
>> >>
>> >> >a spoken language for literary use.
>> >>
>> >> There is some difference: as you probably know, there has been (and
>> >> there is) a lot of disagreement as for how exactly it was pronounced;
>> >
>> >No there isn't. We have actually a *very* good idea of how Classical Latin
>> >was pronounced, both based on direct and indirect evidence. We even have a
>> >good idea of the stress system, unlike that of Ancient Greek for instance.
>> >The few disagreements there are are on par with the disagreement we've
>> >seen on the list a few months ago about whether the _t_ in English
>> >_still_ was better described as /t/ or as /d/. They are a long way from
>> >the guesses we have to make as to the pronunciation of PIE!
>
>Right.
>
>> I'd agree with the last sentence, but "guesses" does not sound right in
>> this context. And you seem to be too optimistic about Latin (your mention
>> of "stress system" is kinda conspicuous).
>
>How is it possible then that there is so much controversy about
>details of Proto-Indo-European reconstruction?  

"Then" = "when there is controversy even about Latin"? I'm afraid I don't
follow...

>Surely, the first
>models of PIE (basically Sanskrit with sandhi and a few other
>things reconstructed out) were less precise than Brugmann's model,
>which was less precise than the model used today.  What regards
>Classical Latin, our grammars are of course not the language itself,
>and we'll never know exactly how it was pronounced, because there
>are neither living speakers nor audio recordings from that time.

Pronunciation is only part of the problem; in fact, we can't be sure we can
translate idiomatically very simple sentences into authentic Latin, except
when they happen to occur in our corpus. 

>> >> And a good deal of information comes not from texts but from grammars
>> >> and lexica, i. e. *models*, most of which were composed when nobody
>> >> spoke *Classical* Latin anymore.
>> >
>> >Actually no one ever *spoke* Classical Latin, except in reading speeches.
>> >Classical Latin was always a literary version of the actual spoken Latin
>> >language, for which we have *plenty* of direct evidence to choose from,
>> >i.e. texts from the time it was used.

[....]

>>       And there is no "attestation" that excludes completely
>> this component, of interpretation = *reconstruction of the system* behind a
>> small sample of something that just cannot reflect the system "directly",
>> without information losses and distortions.
>
>True; we can never completely know an extinct language attested
>in a written corpus because we cannot go and ask a native speaker.

OK, on the "Latin vs. PIE" example.

Doubting that Classical Latin (understood as the upper-class standard lect,
not some artful deviation from such) existed in reality is beyond scientific
discourse. Doubting that PIE existed in reality is beyond scientific
discourse as well.

Description of PIE depends on reconstruction. Description of Classical Latin
depends on reconstruction as well.

It is true that the data used in reconstructing CL is "more direct" than the
data used in reconstructing PIE. However, in a more rigorous sense, a
language ("langue") is not something that can be "directly attested" in
principle; and it seems that we are speaking of "langue" when we refer to
what our "models" model and our descriptions describe.

Closest to "direct attestation" for CL as a language ("langue") are ancient
grammars (since they attempt at generalizations directly relating to
"langue" rather than "parole"), but current vogue is, paradoxically, to
reject a lot of explicit testimony by ancient grammarians (i. e. giving a
higher priority to "less direct" data). 

>> And, as I said, it's not attestation that makes a natlang different from a
>> conlang. And it was the idea that reconstructions are conlangs that I
>> objected to.
>
>That is just a matter of how to define the word "conlang".
>The term "re-conlang" is rather "tongue in cheek"; one should
>not take it too seriously.  It is perhaps better to use two
>different terms, a wider one which encompasses all models of
>languages, and a narrower one which designates those models
>which do not model a real language.

Sure. But this discussion seems to illustrate that definitions aren't
unimportant.

And, to sum up my own stance...

Extending the definition of "conlang" to the point where it covers certain
natlangs (e. g. reconstructed, poorly attested or inadequately described) is
not helpful.

Extending the definition of "conlang" to the point where it covers some or
all of natlang descriptions (including incomplete, inadequate or based on
reconstructions or "indirect" data) is not helpful.

Extending the definition of "modelling" to the point where it covers all of
scientific research is not helpful.

Narrowing the definition of "scientific research" to the point where it
becomes synonymous with "modelling (as used in scientific research)" is not
helpful. 

-- Basilius 

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December 1998, Week 5
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