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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: NATLANG: The edge of human language syntax complexity

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:33:35 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (106 lines)

On 24/09/2011 04:57, Alex Fink wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:17:19 +0100, And
> Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> There have been a couple of discussions about this in
>> the past year. I had not hitherto investigated the
>> standard claims about Fith, which you accurately
>> report, but when I did I concluded that in the main
>> there is nothing remarkable about the Fith language;
>> rather, what is remarkable is the size of Fithians'
>> working memory.

I see.  Then the poem below presents no problems:
{quote}
limb-stump mast tree-stump
*plural shank of midair andante cut .
*singular container *swap without of rock ocean of it absorb .
*plural the predator horn brown *rotate of marketplace remove .
{/quote}

>> Humans could speak Fith correctly but poorly.
>
> But that's the easy direction!  Speaking Shallow Fith
> correctly is speaking Fith correctly, if not with flair.

Nobody disagrees that Jörg's 'Shallow Fith' is humanly
usable. It was designed as "an interlanguage humans and
Fithians could use to communicate with each other.
Basically, it is a proper subset of Fith, with strict limits
to stack depth and with most of the stack operators removed."

What, of course, I was talking about was Fith itself as
designed by Jeffrey Henning. AFAIK there have been no
serious attempts to test the usability of full blown Fith.

>> Fithians could speak human languages far better than
>> humans (i.e. produce and comprehend grammatical
>> sentences of far greater complexity than humans can
>> cope with in real time).
>
> That also seems not to strike at the main point, which I
> take to be human comprehensibility of full-blown Fith.

AMEN!

And's statement above is, of course, scientifically
untestable as Fithians are a fictitious race.

> I dropped the ball on the last conversation on Fith, and
> so this will be a retread, for which I apologise.

No apology needed. The points you make are IMO very
relevant.  It was not Jeffrey Henning's intention that Fith
be human-usable and AFAIK it is _generally_ accepted that
full blown Fith is not. I really need to see firm evidence
to the contrary and, so far, I have not seen it.
=========================================================

On 23/09/2011 21:17, And Rosta wrote:
[snip]
>
> I have claimed that there are three different and
> discrepant Lojbans: (1) the formal definition, (2) the
> langue internalized by the ablest speakers, (3) the
> langue inherent in actual mainstream parole. (1) is
> unspeakable, but (2) is speakable and is functionally
> equivalent to (1); if (1) had been created by people
> with some kind of reasonable understanding of human
> language, it could have been like (2) and hence
> speakable.

This IMHO is hair-splitting. By Lojban I mean and understand
the language developed by the Logical Language Group and
used by the Lojban community.

> I find it rather annoying when people cite the existence
> of (3) as being of linguistic, rather than strictly
> social, significance: it is as if one were to study the
> French speech of english schoolchildren trying to speak
> French to each other,

The analogy is simply false.  French is the language of _la
Francophonie_.  English schoolchildren are attempting to
speak that language.  Lojban, as I understand it, is the
language of the Lojban community.

Your comparison above could just as well be expressed as:
"I have claimed that there are three different and
discrepant Frenches: (1) the formal definition of L'Académie
française, (2) the langue internalized by the ablest
speakers, (3) the langue inherent in actual mainstream parole."

Sorry - I know I am only an amateur linguist, but to me (3)
is what I understand as the main manifestation of French, 
with (1) and (2) being artificial dialects.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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