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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Prefix Notation for Lists of Items

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 24 Sep 2011 16:42:38 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (82 lines)

Logan Kearsley, On 23/09/2011 19:43:
> On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 1:26 PM, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>> Gary Shannon, On 17/09/2011 19:43:
>>>
>>> There have been quite a few discussions on RPN language here
>>> and why the human brain doesn't have a deep enough stack to process
>>> them naturally.
>>
>> It's true that such claims have been made on the list, but they are bogus
>> and appear to have spread through memetic contagion. Plenty of human
>> languages work on RPN principles, known in linguistics as "head-last".
>
> Indeed. What gets called an RPN or PN language, though, is generally
> more restricted than just a description of branching direction. I'd
> still make the claim, based on limited human working memory, that some
> kinds of languages use up recursive stack space faster than others,
> and thus become incomprehensible (due to running out of memory) sooner
> than (or at lower levels of complexity than) others.

It should be possible to substantiate that claim, shouldn't it, with some worked examples, and a set of reasonable assumptions about what causes memory load. I'd be dead interested in seeing such worked examples.

>> Logan Kearsley through his own conlanging has been doing informal
>> experiments on how to mitigate the effects of these limitations, and though
>> his reports of his findings are interesting they're not necessarily
>> something one can draw secure conclusions from; rather, they're indicative
>> of things that would repay further experimentation.
>
> Quite. Sadly, it's hard to run large-scale language-learning experiments.
>
> In pondering some of the issues with Palno, I've come to the
> conclusion that although a single type of syntactic operation
> (predicate application) is sufficient to describe all possible
> propositions,

What is predicate application? The same as function application in Categorial Grammar? (If so, I can't remember what that is, either!)

>my linguistic faculty makes use of at least two;
> appealing to X-bar theory, I don't feel too bad about generalizing
> that to say the human linguistic faculty makes use of at least two:
> merging nodes to fill argument slots, which is required to satisfy
> syntactic well-formedness and corresponds to predication, and
> adjoining nodes, which we do because we feel like it. And if we
> believe in X-bar theory, that provides a nice intuitive explanation of
> why languages like Fith and Palno seem so ridiculously weird despite
> being simple and theoretically easy to parse, because they just
> totally trash X-bar constructs.

Lots of people don't believe in X-bar theory. And I even don't believe in adjunction (at least as far as English goes, which is the only language I study). (Perhaps I might believe in a kind of 'adjunction operator' for stuff like heavy-NP shift, but in that case adjunction would not be a primitive combinatorial type.)

So maybe this could mean that English might look to me rather like Palno looks to you. Certainly even from English I don't succeed in deriving your intuition that very simple combinatorics is memory-draining.

> Strict RPN/PN languages, or predicate-logic languages, don't naturally
> allow adjunction. In Palno, I hacked it together by adding morphology
> that explicitly changes which segment of a phrase is projected to the
> next level, without quite realizing that's what I was doing at the
> time, but I think that really gets to the root of the difference
> between adjunction and predication; if we analyse typical adjuncts
> (like adjectives and adverbs) as single-argument predicates, then
> predication produces a syntactic object that represents the completed
> predicate, while adjunction produces a syntactic object that
> represents the argument of the predicate.

Ah, okay. Yes, that definition of adjunction, as a variety of predication, makes sense to me, and indeed it is absent from ordinary predicate-logic systems. However, this is distinct from the question of the memory demands of PN or RPN. You could have in a PR/RPN system the two types of predication, ordinary and adjunctional.

> Besides the Palno morphology hack, which I'm still not completely fond
> of because it leads to things being marked in odd places, you can
> simulate adjunction by specifying all predicates to have an arbitrary
> number of optional argument slots, but that leads to all kinds of
> oddness. For one, there's the aforementioned problem of how you
> specify the end of the list. And for another, now you've got this
> weird situation where modifier-arguments are potentially assigning
> theta roles to their predicates, and there's a circular dependency
> between two predicates that have each other as arguments... and since
> one or the other has to come first, whichever branching direction you
> pick must be broken. So you pretty much have to have multiple lexical
> classes, or some other morphological or syntactic construct to mark
> the difference between genuine adjunction and predication.

Is this a matter of processability, or just a matter of how to maximize homomorphism between syntax and its semantic interpretation? If the latter, the two-kinds-of-predication method is better than the optional-argument method, IMO (tho for Livagian I use neither, but then for Livagian I am resigned to whatever degree of processability it has).

--And.

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