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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: NATLANG: The edge of human language syntax complexity

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 25 Sep 2011 00:13:10 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (106 lines)

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:48:27 +0100, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Alex Fink, On 24/09/2011 04:57:
>> On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:17:19 +0100, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>> Fithians could speak human languages far better than humans (i.e. produce
>>> and comprehend grammatical sentences of far greater complexity than humans
>>> can cope with in real time).
>>
>> That also seems not to strike at the main point, which I take to be human
>> comprehensibility of full-blown Fith.
>
>Fair enough, but if full-blown Fith, i.e. Fith as spoken by Fithians, is
not human-comprehensible, then full-blown English, i.e. English as spoken by
Fithians, is not human-comprehensible either.

Quite.

>> * stack fiddling that jumps many levels of the tree.  Fith can essentially
>> apply the reflexive or inverse or ... indirect reflexive or bireflexive or
>> rotative or counterrotative voices not just to a verb, but to any predicate,
>> however long it be.
>
>If you mean the three "ordering conjunctions", I think (without having
troubled to locate and reread our earlier discussions) that I readily agreed
that these go beyond what is possible in natlangs and hence presumptively
also beyond what is human-processable. Calling them "voices" somewhat
misleadingly implies a greater comparability to natlangs than they actually
have. The copying conjunctions, I'm not sure about, but I think voi and dzhi
are beyond the pale.

Yes, that's what I mean.  I had forgotten or not seen your agreement.  But I
think that if natlangs ever had verbs (etc.) with arguments which behaved
indistinguishably in semantics and in syntax in ways not arising from their
mere ordering, one could get these degenerate sort of voices which just
swapped or identified a pair of arguments, like an inverse or a reflexive
respectively.  _voi_ is reasonable on a trivalent predicate; it's exactly as
reasonable as _du_ if there's nothing but order distinguishing the
arguments.  And Lojban has these things too, eh.  

_dzhi_ I don't know what to make of in this analogy.  Lists are tricky.

>In other words, there are five or six operators that aren't
human-processable, but the stack-based grammar is not unprocessable and its
other processability limitations are shared with natlangs.

Yes.  The non-unprocessability of stack-based grammar in and of itself is
what I was getting at here: 

>> [Hm, is the isomorphism of the stack description of Fith to the treeish one
>> one gets by parsing from the right well known?]
>
>Explain.

If you parse a Fith sentence right to left, you're building up its syntax
tree top to bottom.  The rightmost word (before the final mood particle) is
the top of the tree.  The words to its left are its arguments, in order; if
any of them in turn needs arguments, recurse to assign these first.  

As a modification to all that, if there comes a stack conjunction, take the
current open part of the tree and permute or identify the unfilled arguments
in it as specify.  If these unfilled arguments all belong to one predicate
you've got the something like voice above.  But if not, you might be
swapping arguments between two predicates which are mth cousins n times
removed for large m and n.  The latter thing, which is pretty wild and in my
understanding is one of the features that earned Fith its unlearnable
reputation, looks much less exceptional in the stack presentation.

>> It seems to me that the various island constraints one often finds (well,
>> posited, at least) on movements in natlangs are likely to ultimately reflect
>> that the processing of these movements is strictly harder than just
>> retaining a static stack (to the extent that a stack-based model is a good
>> one at all),
>
>Some island constraints (e.g. wh-islands) are (IMO, as almost always)
clearly grammatical, tho processability limitations will probably be the
aetiology of much of the grammar. Other island constraints (e.g. adjunct
islands) look like they could be more directly due to processing
limitations. It's been some years since I looked at this stuff, tho, so if
we were to discuss this in more depth I might end up revising my views.

Unfortumately I don't really have more depth to provide here...  And yes, I
was freely mixing aetiological from persistingly functional processing
limitations. 

>>and that these constraints translated to Fith would be
>> analogous to banning voice = stack conjunctions on sufficiently complex
>> constructions.
>
>I didn't understand this point.

I was thinking of applying the same etiology to my tree presentation of Fith
above.

>> * the shell game.  If Alice couldn't tell us what's one and one and one and
>> one and one and one and one and one and one and one, she wouldn't be able to
>> tell us what _shen shen shen shen shen shen shen shen shen shen_ means, let
>> entirely alone what _shen ronh voi lonh ronh ronh shen lonh du ronh_ means.
>
>Not to disagree with you, but note that "She is not not not not not not not
not happy" is a perfectly grammatical English sentence, but is unprocessable
(the syntax is easy enough, but we lose track of the interpretation).

I meant but forgot to throw in an example like that!  

Alex

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