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CONLANG  October 2011, Week 3

CONLANG October 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Help creating subordinate clauses with neither pronouns nor conjunctions

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:25:21 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (171 lines)

On 15/10/2011 18:48, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro wrote:
[snip]
>
> My main sentences used to be SVO, despite my conlang
> favoring either VSO or VOS.
>
> SVO were used in main sentences in order to avoid using
> too many cases. Both subject and object in SVO use
> nominative/absolutive case, which is an unmarked case.
>
> But in consecutive coordinate clauses, as I mentioned, I
> try to use the relation nominative-accusative
> languages=passiveness / ergative-absolutive
> languages=antipassiveness.
>
> 1. When the agent of the first clause is the subject of
> the second, then the patient of the first sentence is
> put in accusative case and the first sentence appears in
> VOS word order, so that its subject gets adjacent to the
> verb of the second sentence.
>
> Example:
 > The woman lost her dog and cried, which
> becomes, Lose dog.her.ACC woman.ABS cry (ACC =
> accusative, ABS = absolutive, there is neither tense nor
> mood, this will be represent with periphrastic
> constructions)
>
> 2. When the patient of the first clause is the subject
> of the second, then the agent of the first sentence is
> put in ergative case and the first sentence appears in
> VSO word order, so that its object gets adjacent to the
> verb of the second sentence.
>
> Example:
> The man pulled the door and it opened, which
> becomes, Pull man.ERG door.ABS open (ERG = ergative).

Ingenious   :)

> I tried to create a verbal noun solution, but this
> proved to be very difficult for this kind of sentence,
> but then I came with a solution using causal-final case
> in one of the nominalized verbs, depending on what the
> speaker wants to imply.
>
> The man pulled the door and it opened, could be
> translated into: 1. Pull man.POSS door.GEN open.CAUS
> (The man pulled the door in order to open, because of
> the opening, intending to open etc), translated
> litterally as "The man's pulling of the door for the
> reason of the opening"

Yes, but "The man pulled the door in order to open it" is
not the same as "The man pulled the door and it opened." I
would leave the _coordinating_ clauses as you outlined them
above under 1 & 2.

"...in order to open it" shows, as you state, _purpose_.  It
could be expressed as "The man pulled the door so that he
might open it" - the good ol' "final clause" of Latin
grammars (ut + subjunctive).

Now we do come to _subordinate_ clauses which is what the
subject line of the email is about.  I think as 'pull' is
the main verb, we should try to keep it as a verb.  Why not
just:
Pull man.ERG door.ABS open.CAUS

The man pulled the door for-the-sake-of-opening [it]?

> or 2. Open door.POSS pull.CAUS man.POSS (The door opened
> because the man pulled, because of the man's pulling, due
> to the man's pulling), translated litterally as "The
> door's opening by the cause of the man's pulling".

That would correspond more closely to English: "The door
opened because the man pulled it" - which might be given as
answer to the question "why did the door open?"

But, as you say, "door" is hardly an agent!

Open door.ACC man.ABS pull.CAUS

Um - I don't like the Causative-Final being lumped together
as the same case.  Causative shows something happening as a
result of a _past_ cause, but final indicates a purpose
directed towards a _future_ action/event/state.

I think I would word the above two as:

Pull man.ERG door.ABS open.PURP

Open door.ACC man.ABS pull.CAUS

[snip]

> In addition, I'm trying to create a highly synthetic
> language, but with the fewest amount of cases. I am
> using genitive and possessive cases for more than just
> either nominal complement or ownership, respectively; I
> am also using causal-final cases for more than just
> adding a either causal or final adverbial adjunct.

So i see  ;)
[snip]
>
> One thing I did in order to lower the amount of cases
> was putting causal and final cases together, comitative
> and instrumental cases also together, dative and
> benefactive cases also together and eliminate motion
> cases, like ablative, allative and others, by using
> periphrastic constructions (keeping one lexical morpheme
> per word)
>
> Example: Peter came from his house, turns into, "Peter
> come origin.COM house.1sg-poss.LOC" (Peter came with
> origin in his house... COM = comitative-instrumental
> case, and LOC = locative case). Peter goes to his
> mother's house, turns into, "Peter go destiny.COM
> house.LOC mother.1sg-poss.POSS" (Peter goes with destiny
> in his mother's house).

Looks rather kludgey to me, I'm afraid. I might well be
tempted to combine these ideas with other cases.  The
ancient Greek sort of pattern might be worth considering:

ACC. - direct object, allative
GEN. - possession, origin, ablative
DAT. - benefactive (indirect object, inessive/locative

with one or two other cases.

> Nowadays I have _ cases:
 > 1. Nominative/Absolutive
> 2.Accusative (may disappear if I use only verbnouns)
> 3.Ergative (may disappear if I use only verbnouns)
> 4. Genitive
> 5. Possessive
> 6. Dative
 > 7. Comitative-instrumental
> 8. Causal-final
 > 9. Locative
 > 10. Vialis
>
> Notes: 1. I wanted to transform vialis case in a
> periphrastic construction with the locative case, as I
> did for the motion cases, but I could not find a good
> periphrastic construction? Can you give me one?

Well, following the above examples, how about ..

Peter come route.COM house.1sg-poss.LOC
"Peter came b-way-of/through his house"   ??

> 2. Genitive and possessive cases were not put together
> due to the subordinate clause structure. If I would put
> both together, the subordinate clauses would become
> ambiguous.

Yes, if you use them that.  I'll ponder on the case system.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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