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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  October 2011, Week 3

CONLANG October 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Help creating subordinate clauses with neither pronouns nor conjunctions

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:08:52 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (142 lines)

On 17/10/2011 13:27, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro wrote:
> Thanks for your immediate answer, Mr Ray Brown,


You're welcome  :)

> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 12:25 PM, R A
> Brown wrote:
>
>> That would correspond more closely to English: "The
>> door opened because the man pulled it" - which might be
>> given as answer to the question "why did the door
>> open?"
>>
>> But, as you say, "door" is hardly an agent!
>>
>> Open door.ACC man.ABS pull.CAUS
>>
>
> As you wrote above it would be "The man opened the door
> because of the pulling (action)", which by the context
> would be perfectly interpreted as the pulling being an
> action performed by the man upon the door, so being
> translated "The man opened the door because he pulled it"
> or "The man opened the door by pulling it". Did you
> prefer using door in accusative case because it is, as
> you said, "hardly an agent"?

Yes.

> Initially I thought about "Open door.ABS pull.CAUS
> man.POSS", because in the action "The door opens" the
> subject (agent or not) is the door, and the man takes no
> role in this sentence (only implicitly).

Yes - that is also a possibility.

> "Open door.ABS pull.CAUS man.POSS" would be something
> like "The door opens because of the man's pulling" (The
> door opens because the man pulls).

Agreed.

>[snip]
>> I think I would word the above two as:
>>
>> Pull man.ERG door.ABS open.PURP
>>
>> Open door.ACC man.ABS pull.CAUS
>
>
> Great, so you think it is preferable to have distinct
> causative and final cases, instead of a causal-final one.

Yes.

[snip]
>> The ancient Greek sort of pattern might be worth
>> considering:
>>
>> ACC. - direct object, allative
 >> GEN. - possession, origin, ablative
>> DAT. - benefactive (indirect object, inessive/locative
[snip]
> Could you give me an example, please?

The allative, ablative & locative thing becomes apparent 
with prepositions, e.g,
para + Acc. = to the side of
para + Gen. = from the side of
para + Dat. = at the side of

> About the ancient Greek sort of pattern, I am a little
> bit afraid of my language look sometimes too
> Indo-European.


Good point.
> I would like to make my sentences with an
> intuitive logic for any speaker: indo-european, khoisan,
> sino-tibetan, altaic, paleo-siberian, austronesian etc.
> Readability is important, but not obligatory, an
> intuitive and logical syntactic construction is much more
> important.
>
> I don't know if accusative really can be intuitively
> associated with a destiny,

Agreed.

> genitive with an origin and

Origin of ownership. I think this association of ideas is 
found outside of the IE group as well (tho I may be 
misremembering).

> dative with a specific location.

No - the ancient Greek dative was a conflation of the PIE 
dative, instrumental & locative cases.

I suppose what I was thinking was that final/purpose might 
be a figurative use of an allative form, and that cause 
might be a figurative use of an ablative form.  But I need 
to give it more thought.
[snip]

>
> I received two interesting opinion besides yours. One was
> from Daniel Bowman and the other from Virgina Keys. The
> former proposes separating the subordinate clauses from
> the main clause by creating 2+ clauses, e.g., "I saw you
> hugging the girl", turning into "I saw you. You hugged
> the girl.". It is an interesting solution, the only
> problem is that the language will be quite repetitive
> and, probably, boring for one to speak complex
> sentences.

I agree. In fact complex sentences will be impossible; you 
would have a string of simple sentences with, probably, 
quite a bit of repetition.

> The latter opinion, Virgina Key's, on the
> other hand, was a very synthetic one, making the object
> attached to the verb, e.g. "I saw you hugging the girl",
> turning into "saw hug-girl" (I think she had this idea
> based on the "one morpheme per word" sentence on the
> first e-mail. I think she didn't read the next e-mails of
> the thread :-( ).

That's what I thought also on reading Virginia's email.


-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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