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CONLANG  November 2011, Week 3

CONLANG November 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Roman letter syllabary problems

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:37:05 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

On 16/11/2011 17:24, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Wednesday 16 November 2011 18:08:40 R A Brown wrote:
>
>> On 16/11/2011 12:22, BPJ wrote:
>>> On 2011-11-15 20:09, R A Brown wrote:
>>>> One snag I noticed yesterday as I was trying to
>>>> write up a page on Brx grammar: it's darn
>>>> difficult to differentiate pronunciation between,
>>>> say, _xa_ /'çi.a/ and _xj_ /'cija/, or between _da_
>>>> /'tu.a/ and _do_ /'tuwa/.
>>>>
>>>> This afternoon I re-assigned _a_ as /ɰa/ - but
>>>> /'çiɰa/ and /'tuɰa/ ??
>
> If you want your phonemes to be easily mastered and kept
> apart by as many people in the world as possible, stay
> away from /ɰ/ - most languages don't have it,

Actually on investigation I find that the _phone_ [ɰ] is not
as uncommon as one might think, but as a phoneme it is
rather more rare.

But as things stand at the moment, I have, e.g. _fa_
/'pi.a/ and _fj_ /'pija/. I think that in practice there is
likely to be no appreciable difference between /'pi.a/ and
/'pija/.

I could insist that as in Classical Latin medial /j/ is
pronounce [jj] but that would be weird in a language which
doesn't otherwise have geminates.

I need to find some satisfactory solution.

> and most people won't be able to tell what is going on
> here.  (You should also replace /ç/ by /ʃ/ if that is
> your goal.)

I think one needs to distinguish between phonemes and phones
(which, admittedly, the Brx page currently online does not
really do).  it is clearly stated that [ʃ] is a permitted
variant of /ç/.

Sure anglophones, francophones and many others will use [ʃ];
but the sound is absent from the language with the most
speakers, i.e. Mandarin Chinese. Such speakers will surely
pronounce _x_ as [ɕi].

I understand [ɕ] also occurs in Catalan ans (some of) the
Scandinavian langs.

However I represent the phoneme currently given as /ç/, it
is meant to cover both sounds.

[snip]
>>
>> But you right that I would need /hu/ (or /χu/).  In
>> fact I played around with such a system yesterday,
>> using _f_ = /hu/; but I finished up having to import
>> Greek π for /pi/ - I really don't want to import Greek
>> letters if I can avoid it (tho I suppose π is well
>> enough known).
>
> It is well known - but *not a letter of the Latin
> alphabet*, and you should avoid such bags on the side of
> an elegant idea.

No, I do not want to import symbols from other alphabets.
Otherwise I would have imported Cyrillic Н н instead of _h_
= /nu/.
=========================================================

On 16/11/2011 17:59, Garth Wallace wrote concerning π :
[snip]
>
> Also, in a Latin context it could be easily mistaken for
> tt (depending on typeface).

Yes, or for _n_    ;)

No, I'm not importing π

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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