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CONLANG  November 2011, Week 3

CONLANG November 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Roman letter syllabary problems

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:58:25 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (96 lines)

On 2011-11-18 09:56, R A Brown wrote:
>
> On 17/11/2011 20:52, BPJ wrote:
>  > On 2011-11-17 16:56, R A Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>  >>
>  >> There's no problem with /piji/ at the moment (except in
>  >>  allegro speech I suppose it could become [pi:]); also
>  >> according to the current online page /piji/ could be
>  >> pronounced [piji], [pi.i] or [piʔi] ad_lib.
>  >>
>  >> It's only /a/ which is causing a problem.
>  >>
>  > So why can't /paa/ be [pa.a], [paha] or [pa?a] ad lib?
>
> No reason at all, that I am aware of.
>
> The problem is that as things stand at the moment, it seems to me
> that neither ['pi.a] and ['pija] nor ['pu.a] and ['puwa] will
> realistically be distinguished.  The only way of doing that is to
> insist that /a/ _must_ be preceded by [h] or [?] or some other
> sound. If it must be so proceeded then that sound is surely no
> longer 'ad_lib' but assumes phonemic status.
>
>  > I
>  > guess that what I essentially meant was that it isn't the
>  > whole world if it came out as [paxa] for some -- it
>  > doesn't necessarily mean that Brx acquires a velar
>  > fricative phoneme /x/ which must be subject to the same
>  > allophonic rules vs. /s/ as /k/ vs. /t/ -- phonologically
>  > it's still /./, which just happens to have a wide range
>  > of allophones, some of which have oral friction, which is
>  > OK as long as they don't coincide with allophones of /s/.
>  > That's actually how a book I have describes Japanese /h/.
>
> Yes, but the Japanese /h/ occurs also before /u/. I haven't
> discounted having a phoneme /h/ or something similar, but
> including /hu/ means I need 27 symbols

Not if the contrasts /h/~/u/ /__u and /h/~/j/ /__i are
neutralized the same way that /t/ vs. /k/ is
neutralized before /i/; then /ha/ will be the only /h/
syllable which needs its own letter. If you define /h/
as an approximant which happens to have voiceless
allophones (which essentially is what /h/ is in
Germanic languages at least) I see no problem. This
will cover velar and uvular allophones as well: Russian
/x/ is realized as a voiceless velar approximant more
often than not, and modern Russian speakers equate this
sound with the /h/ of Germanic languages. Much the same
goes for Tibetan: it has a phoneme which can be [h] in
some positions, but which also can be [x˕] in all
positions, and which the script equates with Sanskrit /
ɦ/! Swedish speakers have no problem distinguishing
devoiced [j̊] -- the realization of /ʰj/ -- from /ɕ/,
even though /j/ may be /ʑ/ when not following a
consonant, and despite the fact that Swedish speakers
generally can't hear the difference between Swedish /ɕ/
and German /ç/. The Ukrainian phoneme corresponding to
Russian /g/ ranges between [ɦ] and /ɰ/, and it seems
[h] is a possible realization of it at least in some
contexts.

If French can have a phoneme with the allophones [ə], [
ʔ] and zero (e muet/h aspiré), then I can't see why Brx
can't have a phoneme which ranges between all
fricatives/approximants *which are not recognized
allophones of other phonemes* -- thus including [f],
[ɸ], [x], [χ] but excluding [ç] -- plus [ʔ], and which
happens to be distinct from all other phonemes only
before /a/ -- the contrast between /h/ and w/__u and
j/__i being neutralized because some of the allophones
of /h/ (voiced back fricatives) would be expected to
merge with /w/ and /j/ in these positions --, and a
rule which says that /h/~/j/ / V__i.and /h/~/w/ / V__u
should be realized in the /h/ range. After all phonemic
contrasts should be about *maintaining contrasts*, not
absolute realizations, and hopefully everyone who has
trouble with realizing a back-of-palatal
approximant/fricative in /Vji/~/Vhi/ will be able to
maintain the distinction between /Vji/ and /Vsi/ by
using a clearly fricative [ʃ] or [ɕ] in /Vsi/ and
something more approximant in /Vji/~/Vhi/. From the
definition of /h/ by what it is not it should at a
pinch even be OK to realize /Vji/~/Vhi/ as [Vfi] or
[Vɸi] rather than merging s/__i anh h~j/__i, given that
[f] and [ɸ] *are* allophones of /h/, which they should
be in consideration of Japanese. (This said I assume
/p/,/t/,/k/ can't have fricative allophones any more
than the /t/~/k/ archiphoneme before /i/ can. I suspect
there are more languages where f-ish phones are
allophones of h-ish and x-ish phonemes, than where they
are allophones of /p/!)

/bpj

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