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CONLANG  November 2011, Week 3

CONLANG November 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Design Perameters for Romanization

From:

George Corley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 15 Nov 2011 00:48:39 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (107 lines)

I'd like to thank everyone who greeted this post positively, and I'm glad that I 
got a discussion started in so many places.  It's a topic that's been nagging at 
my brain for some time, and it feels good to get my thoughts out there.  I 
waited until I got the daily digest to read the CONLANG discussion, so I 
thought I'd run through and respond to a few people's comments.

>Your analysis doesn't make a distinction between the transcription of a
non-Latin orthography, e.g. Cyrillic or Arabic, and the creation of a
Latin-based orthography for a previously unwritten language, e.g. a
conlang.  In the former case, accessibility seems paramount, while the
other criteria seem only to apply to the latter case. -- Peter Cyrus

Yes, that is absolutely true.  The fact is that since I wrote this piece primarily 
from the perspective of a conlanger, I therefore focused on the later of your 
two scenarios, since most conlangers will create a Latin orthography before 
creating any other script (if they create a "native" script at all).  Although, I 
think that aesthetics and history can affect the former case -- particularly 
where history justifies mirroring certain oddities in the native script.

>The question is: What would be historically plausable, assuming that the
Syrunian community used the Latin alphabet along side the Hebraic script?
Currently, I romanise the Hebraic letters, rather than indicating Latin
etymological spelling.
>1) Indicating vowels is inconsistent: I don't know whether vowels not
written in Hebraic should be present in the romaisation.
>2) Its a generally one-to-one scheme, but for Emphatic-s and -t I use
double letters rather than diacritics (ie: ssade and ttav). Modern
romaisation of Semitic uses diacritics on consonants, but I dont think
historical users would go for that option.
>3) <y> for /j/ looks more Aramaic, which was an stheic choice.
>4) the romanisation of /S/ is unresolved. <> is often used in Aramaic, but
I don't like the diacritic; <sh> would indicate "sameh-he", not "in".  Could I 
use <w>, because it looks like <&#1513;> superficially? -- Iuhan

I would definitely write vowels.  Both elegance and accessibility militate 
toward this, and unless you particularly hate vowel letters, I imagine only 
historical reasons can legitimize omitting them -- and they're pretty weak 
historical reasons IMO.

>>but he admittedly introduced the dieresis for reasons of accessibility,
saying it was to indicate diphthongs 
>>that might be misinterpreted as digraphs by English speakers (how
successful he was is hard to say)

>Not for diphthongs (that would be weird), but for the combinations of two
vowels, as <e>; and to indicate that final <-> is not silent as in
English. This actually seems to be a mixed aesthetic/practical decision, as
diaeresis is part of Finnish spelling as well, although just <> and <>,
not <>.
>In German, for example, it may be advisable to spell <i>, in Quenya as in
Sindarin, because <ie> is a digraph for [i:], but there is no need for an
extra highlighting of final <-e>. -- Roman Rausch

Yes.  Someone else pointed out that error before I saw your post.  It's fixed, 
along with another error I made about Chinese romanizations.

>I would also like to mention that if you have several languages, you might
want to exploit different spelling variants for them, like using <y> for [j]
in one case, and <j> in another - to keep them visually apart, to make it
easier for the reader to tell them apart; and just for consistent aesthetics." -- 
Roman Rausch

Thank you, I hadn't considered that.  I wonder, could that be considered an 
aesthetic or an accessibility concern?  Or does it fall outside my rubric 
entirely?

>It surprised me a little bit when, after stating your design goals, you then
equated whether you romanise the underlying or the surface sounds with the
elegance--accessibility axis.  I think there's a degree missing here. 
Elegance should really mean getting the internal _structure_ of your
romanisation to match the phonological structure.  You can reflect the
phonemes one-to-one without matching the structure (this extra structure
might come from e.g. morphophonemics, or just featural analysis);
conversely, you can match the structure and still show allophony.  

>E.g. suppose you were romanising a language where all the basic stops had
fricative allophones (e.g. Old Irish, or Biblical Hebrew).  
For one, you could just not write them at all, <p> [p f], <t> [t T], etc. 
>That's underlying.  
>A second way wd be to write the stops as <p t k b d g> and the fricatives as
<ph th kh bh dh gh>.  That's phonemic as opposed to phonetic but still, I
reckon, elegant.  (The Irish option, modulo the use of <c>.)
Then a third way would be to put the stops as <p t k b d g> and the
fricatives as <f th kh v dh gh>.  That would be the maximally familiar one." -- 
Alex Fink

I might not have been entirely clear on that point.  I meant that representing 
phonetic values rather than phonemic values is an accessibility preference 
when such an action would help the target audience pronounce words -- such 
as if they are meant to show sounds that are phonemes in the target 
audience's language.  Your third option looks like a bow to accessibility to 
Anglophones to me, since English distinguishes, with the second being an odd 
halfway split.

I should note that, as I defined the elegance criterion (and others are free to 
offer alternate definitions if they feel it inadequate), it simply doesn't care 
what particular grapheme you use to represent a given sound, just that it be a 
phonemic representation and as simple as possible.

>Under aesthetics Id like to consider exoticness,  a few graphemes to 
make the alphabet a little bit different.  For this I have retained  (eth) and  
(thorn), although they are dentals rather than interdentals.  And I have 
retained &#541; (yogh) for /j/. -- Charlie Brickner

Yes, of course, making a language seem "exotic" can be part of aesthetic 
considerations.  BTW, I think you have the names of thorn and eth backward.

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December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
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September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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April 2003, Week 5
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February 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
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November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
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July 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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